Re: [tied] Re: 3rd. person *-s(V)

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:39:43 +0100 (MET), Jens Elmegaard Rasmussen
<jer@...> wrote:

>> The ordinary reflexive (abslutive sg.) is -ni < *-n~ < *-c, so because of
>> its position in the Auslaut, the /c/ is difficult to compare directly
>> with
>> the /c/ in the 2pl. suffix -/ci/. 
>
>No, because of the position, the reflexive -ni from *-ñ < *-c is
>very easy to compare with 2sg -n from *-t.

I'm afraid I'm not making myself clear.

I *know* the reflexive is not the same as the second person, and I *know*
/c/ is not /t/. Why would I want to compare 2sg. -n with the reflexive if
the 2sg. does not contain the phoneme /c/?

Note that I was explicitly ignoring your morpheme slashes, because my
question was of a phonological nature, not morphological, and not, unless
it can't be helped, morphophonological.

Thanks for the other information, but I was only interested in the
following (which contain 2pl. -ci and the corresponding reflexives):

>2pl ie. -ci/-zi, erg. -pci [*-t-d] [*-m-t-d]
>refl.pl.ie. -t&ng/-z&ng, erg. -m&ng [*-c-d] [*-m-c-d]
>2pl.ie.pl. -ci (*-d-t-d)
>2pl.erg.pl. -pci (*-d-m-t-d)
>refl.pl.ie.pl. -t&ng (*-d-c-d)
>refl.pl.erg.pl. -m&ng (*-d-m-c-d)
>
>Aleut
>2pl.ie.sg. -ci (E -ci/-zi) : *-t-d)
>2pl.erg.sg. -mci (E -pci) : *-m-t-d)
>refl.pl.ie.sg. -dis (E -t&ng/-z&ng) : *-c-d)
>refl.pl.erg.pl. -mang (E -m&ng) : *-m-c-d)

The trouble with these forms is that they're all irregular.
One would expect:

*-t-d > -t&t/-d&t, Al. -d&s *-c-d > -c&t/-z&t, Al. -z&s(?)
*-m-t-d > -pt&t, Al. -md&s *-m-c-d > -pc&t, Al. -mz&s(?)

*-d-t-d > -t&t *-d-c-d > -c&t
*-d-m-t-d > -pt&t *-d-m-c-d > -pc&t,

with irregular developments *-t-d > ci, and *-c-d > *-t-d (Aleut) and
*-m-c-d > *-mang (both).

>The lenition product of /t/ is expteced to be -d-, but we find -z- in
>Eskimo.

The problem is that the 2pl. isn't *-/t(&d)/ (> *-d&t ~ *-t&t), it's, for
whatever reason, *-/ci/ (> *-ci ~ *-zi).

>However in the reflexive it *is* expected to be -z-. Conversely,
>in Aleut we find -d- for both, which is expected only in the 2nd person.

What is the lenition product of /c/ in Aleut?


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...