Re: The palatal sham :) (Re: [tied] Re: Albanian (1))

From: enlil@...
Message: 30757
Date: 2004-02-06

Dan:
> However neat your story (or two stories) on pure linguistic
> grounds, it seems to me to defy common sense that I. E.
> would borrow the word for "seven" from Semitic, wait a thousand
> years or so and then borrow the word for "six".

It seems to defy more common sense that a language couldn't.
I didn't know there was a time limit on numeral borrowing :)
However, I'm suggesting only a 500-year gap or less really.
I'm saying that the first number was borrowed within the early
Mid IE stage, and the second in the mid-to-late Mid IE stage.
It would only be a thousand years only if one was borrowed
exactly at 6000 and the other exactly at 5000. As Miguel points
out, there would be a shift in North Semitic pronunciation
between the occurence of the two loans. Since a change of
*s > *s^ can occur in a blink of an eye. We don't necessarily
need that much time at all between the adoption of *septam and
*sWeksa.


> Did the words replaced lost I.-E. words or were new concepts?

I severely doubt that IE didn't have words for "six" and "seven"
before it borrowed them from Semitic. For some reason, many
people seem to still think that hunter-gatherers are mathematical
dolts that can't possibly count up to ten. As if "ten" is an
elitist number that only agricultural peoples may discover,
a somehow unattainable amount in the mesolithic world. Strange
how some people think.


> It's hard to imagine whatever sociological situation led
> to the borrowing of seven was repeated long after for six.

Religion and numerological symbology. "Seven" especially is a
recurrent symbol of the divine in ancient Near-Eastern worldview.
Not only population and genetics but culture and worldview had
spread to Europe with the advent of agriculture in the neolithic.

Seven planetary bodies, seven levels of heaven, seven stars of
the Pleiades, seven doves, seven days a week, Snow White and
the seven dwarfs, seven-up, seven-eleven, hehehe :) But
seriously now. Seven is an important number. So was six and was
especially used in the Bible (also derived from these older
views) as the opposing "evil" number of Satan. However, I've
suggested that "six" and "seven" originally represented the
female and male principle, respectively, and that this is why
"six" is in the feminine and "seven" is in the masculine form.
The two numbers added together whether literally or symbolically
represent wholeness.


= gLeN