The palatal sham :) (Re: [tied] Re: Albanian (1))

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 16:09:50 +0000, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>
> wrote:
>
> >--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...>

wrote:

> >> On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:12:11 +0000, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On the question of palatal vs palatalised (now I can't find the
> >> >thread) I think palatalised must mean something that can be de-
> >> >palatalised (unlike palatal), it must have a rubber band

attached;

> >> >which is: participation in a paradigm in which that sound

(velar)

> >> >alternates between palatalised and non-palatal,
> >>
> >> Not necessarily. And certainly not in the case of PIE *k and

*k^,

> >which do
> >> not alternate significantly.
> >
> >You misunderstand me. I am suggesting that so-called palatal PIE

*k^

> >once alternated between (eg.) /k/ and /k'/ (or /c^/) in the
> >appropiate contexts, from which state of affairs it was
> >regularised/generalised to either a non-alternating /k/ (in the
> >centum languages) or a non-alternating /k'/ (in the satem

languages,

> >from which it developed > /c^/ > /s^/ etc), and that so-called

plain

> >PIE *k occurs only in loans into PIE from Old European which is a
> >para-/pre-IE language in central Europe.
>
> The first thing I suppose is possible, the second thing is

unfounded.

Which means? Please explain.

> >> It's simply a question of articulation. For a palatal stop, the
> >closure is
> >> made at the hard palate by the front of the tongue. For a
> >palatalized
> >> stop, the closure is made at the appropriate labial, coronal or
> >radical
> >> locus, but simultaneously the front of the tongue is raised

towards

> >the
> >> hard palate (as in producing the vowel /i/). For coronal and
> >radical
> >> (velar/uvular) stops, this does affect the place of articulation
> >somewhat
> >> (/t'/ is usually more back than /t/, /k'/ is more front

than /k/),

> >but the
> >> gesture is quite distinct from that of a palatal stop.
> >>
> >
> >You're talking Slavic languages here
>
> No. I'm talking standard phonetic terminology.
>
>

Same result. We use different terminology.

Torsten