Hello John,
You raise a very interesting question about the candidates in ancestors of
the NEC speaking folks.
In your previous post you described your (and J. Nichols') idea that NEC
people represent the descendants of the first Near East farmers, and that
Nakh and Daghestan branches divided very early (6,000 BC or even earlier).
I have another current hypothesis.
I agree that ultimately one of the early farmers groups produced the NEC
people. However I'd expect a wider scale of its early branching. The idea of
J.Bengtson's Macro-Caucasian superfamily (including NEC, NWC, Basque and
Burushaski) would fit here perfectly.
As to NEC (or, better, Nakh-Daghestanian) properly, I try to associate its
progress, spreading and therefore disintegration with the invention of the
arsenical bronze somewhere in Greater Armenia about 3500 BC (or a bit
earlier). There are 2 related and striking cultures of that epoque: the
Kuro-Arax c. in East Armenia and the East Caucasus, and the Maikop c. in the
western part of the North Caucasus. The latter definitely came from the
southern regions and gives the direct line to the Nakh tribes: the Maikop c.
> the North Caucasian c. > the Koban c. > the Nakh tribes.
The destiny of the Proto-Daghestan tribes isn't so clear. Perhaps they
descend from the Kuro-Arax c., perhaps they represent another branch of the
Maikop c. (less probably), perhaps there is the third source.
I'm afraid that neither you nor me have at the moment enough facts to ground
strongly own hypothesis. We have mainly guesses. I suggest to consider both
working hypothesis simultaneously pointing both strong and weak sides of
each of them.
Please see other comments below.
> I on the other hand am very sympathetic to the thesis that HU is a
> third (and possibly earlier) branch of NEC. In fact I tend to feel
> that there are four separate "languages" within HU, as follows
>
> ..................|---------------- Urartian
> ...............|--|................
> ............|--|..|---------------- Hurrian
> ............|..|...................
> ....|-Proto-|..|------------------- Subartu
> ....|.H-U...|......................
> PNEC|.......|---------------------- Proto-Tigrean
> ....|..............................
> ....|....|------------------------- Proto-Nakh
> ....|----|.........................
> .........|------------------------- Proto-Daghestan
>
> Subartu is the pre-Semitic, pre-Sumerian language along the Tigris
> in the vacinity of Eshnuna and Ashur, traces of which appear in some
> Sumerian and Akkadian documents. A number of people, I believe have
> suggested that the names of Sumerian cities, of the Tigris and
> Euphrates, of agricultural items and a number of arts and crafts are
> not of Sumerian origin.
Do you consider "Proto-Tigrean" as the language of the Ubaid culture?
If so, Subartu and other "North" branches would be a result of the
well-known movement of Ubaid people to Upper Mesopotamia - the North Ubaid
complex.
What suggests that the language of Subartu is close to NEC and/or
Proto-Tigrean? (besides of similarity Subartu - Urartu)
There was a province Shubria in SW Urartu. Is this a development of Subartu?
> I know that some of these (for example the
> city name Bad Tabira = City of the Smiths, the second city of the
> Sumerian Kinglist, are of Hurrian or Proto-HU) origin.
Has Tuval-Cain (Cain the Smith) from Genesis 4:22 anything to do with Bad
Tabira?
And with Hattic hapalki/hawalki - the mother for the "iron" and "smith"
words in many languages?
> > What a technique does she use for such estimations?
>
> I haven't got her paper on this in front of me Alexander - I'll send
> it to you directly.
Thank you in advance.
> This "pottery" root
> would certainly place the split AFTER the shift from Pre-Pottery to
> Post Pottery Neolithic (i.e. AFTER 8,000 BP)
Yes, pottery appeared about this date in Anatolia (Beldibi). However it was
Mesolithic tribes (fishermen, not farmers!) who invented it. Only as late as
about 6,500 BC the Near East farmers started to use clay pottery (insted of
stone or wooden vessels) and Pre-Pottery Neolithic ends.
By the way, there are at least 4 places in the world where clay pottery was
invented independently - Japan, Anatolian coast, Central Sahara and Lower
Amazonca. The first three of them are presented by fishermen cultures (for
the moment of the invention), and I guess fishing also must be important in
Amazonia. Coincides?
One more collateral question:
What dishes of cereals were cooked by the Pre-Pottery Neolithic people?
> Alexander, if I have trouble with these links could I presume on
> your services to copy the terms and email them to me please?
Sure.
However I think you will find the direct access to this database. At the
moment the server of iiasnt.leidenuniv.nl doesn't work. However one may use
another link:
http://starling.rinet.ru/babel.htm
Please choose "All Databases" in the left menu and then "North Caucasian
Etymology" in the drop-down list.
Regards,
Alexander