Re: Tor/Tur/(e)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" wrote:

>>>> "Zürich" is a corrupted germanized form of Latin "Turicum" --
>>>> the name Romans give to the city they founded in 15 B.C. -- which
>>>> has nothing to do with "Thor", being probably connected to Celtic
>>>> "dur" `water`.
>>
>>> Full of Tur-/Tor- names. As for what *tur- in Turicum is, none of
>>> us can say.
>>
>> Well, a 100% safety would be excessive, but since:
>> a) the city was founded by Romans in 15 B.C. and called "Turicum";
>> b) first inhabitants were Celtic lake dwellers;
>> c) "dur" means `water` in Celtic;
>
> Thus, in the local Celtic, /d/ > /t/, but no change in /k/?

"-icum" is the Latin ending. Whick /k/ are you referring at?

>> d) there were no "Thor"-inspirational sources in immediate vicinity
>> of the city at Roman establishment: Alamans came centuries later;
>
> Circular.

No. That's what history says. If you think local Celtic population
were responsible for propagating the cult of a foreign god just for
making a nice placename, you have to bring out some more stuff than
a vague sound similarity.

>>> I'm just observing that the element *tur- is all over the place.
>>
>> Which place? Examples?!
>
> In the link I gave.

Well, according to your fitness criteria ("element *tur-" -- BTW,
there is no need of *), I can make similar cases for placenames
containing say initial "element tar-" or "element ter-". A short
string of characters as "tVr-" has little meaning in itself (if
any meaning is to be considered). See also above.

>> Outside Germanic area, why on earth should a geographical unit
>> name containing the initial _string of characters_ "tur-" or "tor-"
>> assigned a particular meaning to that string (as "element"), and
>> further assumed that meaning has to be related to "Thor"?! That
>> sounds pretty bad for usual pertinence standards in linguistics.
>> Not every "tur" ("tor") in the world has something to do with your
>> favorite matching god name (for instance, Romanians have "tur" as
>> legitimate word meaning `trousers' posterior` but I wouldn't relate
>> it even for a joke with the mighty Thor...).
>
> Last someone went ballistic I think my favorite God's name was Odin?

Your {favorite God name} might be Odin (I wouldn't really bet on
that; anyway it's OT), but your {favorite _matching_ god name} (for
placenames with initial "tor-/tur-") must be Thor.

> I proposed that Snorri's account of Thor's stay in Thrace meant
> that he was known in Europe Beyond and before any Germani. As
> counterargument you offer that everyone knows that's not true.

I did not offer any counterargument, I simply contested two bad
examples. OTOH, Thor might have been _known_ in Thrace (though from
being known to being _popular_ and _adopted_ there is a long-long
way to go), but this cannot account for an argument that most
European people in antiquity (including Celts) were very willing
to use his name as root for placenames. Were you despotical ruler
of (say) Germany, would you call a new city "Allahstadt"? :-)

Regards,
Marius Iacomi