Re: [tied] Re: Vanir,etc.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marco Moretti" <marcomoretti69@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 1:28 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: Vanir,etc.


> I consider Anglo-Saxon /wanum/ "bright", that must be ancient and non-
> IE. It's a rare word, but I think it's suitable.

An argument based on a hapax is inherently weak. (Not to mention the
suspicion that the word is a figment. Although I happen to teach OE, I'm not
aware of <wanum> [presumably dat.pl.] 'bright'. Can you offer a reference?)
If I were to compare the name of the Vanir with known Germanic words, I'd
suggest a connection with *wana- 'deficient, lacking, incompletely formed'
(seems OK for a family of gods considered inferior). That word is at least
well attested in all the subbranches of Germanic.

> So I'm oriented on
> the semantic sphere of "light", "divinity". It's better than
> Torsten's comparison because it is based on a real, existing Germanic
> word without any credible IE connection.

If the word is so insecure (I'm not convinced it's real; see above), how can
you know anything about its etymological connections?

> The singular was surely /*waniz/, not /*wanaz/, because -ir is an
> ending for the -i- stems (IE *-ejes).

Marco, you tend to use words like "must" and "surely" for rhetorical effect
where the evidence doesn't warrant certainty. Germanic -i-stem plurals do
not guarantee -i-stem singulars. Names of ethnic groups (e.g. ON Danir, OE
Dene) and other collective appellations (cf. OE ylde 'men', ylfe 'elves',
etc.) often had the form of -i-stem plurals no matter what their underlying
lexical base. I suppose original collectives in *-ija- (related e.g. to
Slavic *-Ije) and plural forms of *-i-stems (with *-ij- < *-ej-) fell
together in Germanic (compare OE le:ode and Slavic *ljudIje 'people
[coll.]'). Ethnonymic *-i:z was simply a kind of collective suffix. It tells
us virtually nothing about the declension of the corresponding singular. Cf.
OE Ro:mware 'the Romans', Cantware 'the Kentish people' but sg. <waru> (a
feminine o:-stem). Martin Huld has recently argued -- very convincingly --
that the Aesir stem was also a strong masculine (*ansa-z) in the singular.

> I'm not so sure of a direct connection with Greek /(w)anakt-/ but it
> looks good and quite probable.

Well, I'd say it's neither good nor probable. I've never heard of Gk.
(w)anakt- being connected with brightness.

> Torsten's arguments are based only on whim.

Here at least we agree.

Piotr