[tied] Re: *(H-)p/bh[-r/l-] again again

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:05:09 +0000, Marco Moretti
> <marcomoretti69@...> wrote:
>
> >--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...>

wrote:

> >> >I can only notice /zilar/ "silver", almost surely from Afro-
> >Asiatic.
> >>
> >> But if so, -arr is not the collective suffix, but merely due to

the

> >fact
> >> that the borrowed item ended in -arr.
> >
> >If we match e.g. Akkadian s.irpu(m) "silver" or Hebrew

s.a:ro:ph "to

> >purify metals" (with s. I transcribe the enphatic affricate),

where

> >is the -arr?
>
> AFAIK, Akk. s.arpu means "purified". The word for "silver" is kaspu

(m).

> I don't think this word has anything to do with "zilar" or "silver".

I found also /s.irpu(m)/ "silver" but it is not of course the basic
Akkadian word for this metal. /kaspu(m)/ is like Hebrew /keseph/
regularly < Semitic /*kaspu/. If I'm not wrong an item similar
to /s.irpu(m)/ exists also in ancient Arabic
(probably /s.irf/ "money" ???) and in some Berber variety we
find /azerf/.

> >I can only think that when the loanword happened, a
> >collective Vasconic -arr was added (leading to dissimilation of

the

> >first -r- in -l- or in -d-? thorny, and there are dialectal

variants

> >that point to *zillarr instead).
>
> The form zilar, like all similar words bular, belar, elur etc.

occurs in

> several variants: zirarr, zilarr, zidarr (belarr ~ berarr ~ bedarr,

etc.)

> The forms with /l/ are secondary dissimilations of the forms

with /r/

> before final /rr/. The forms with /d/ (Bizkaian) are cases

where /d/ did

> not go to /r/ (as it usually does), again due to final /rr/. My
> reconstruction for pre-Basque is therefore *sidar (like *bedar,

*budar,

> *edur etc.). The case of zilar is perhaps special in that there is

one

> unexpected variant <zildar>, which I cannot explain in the usual

way. It's

> either ancient, in which case *sildar got modified to *sidar

irregularly

> (giving zidar ~ zirar ~ zilar), or it's not, in which case *sildar

is a

> modification of original *sidar, under the influence of, say,

Celtiberian

> <silabar>. If *sidar is the ancient form, we can connect it with

Greek

> sida:ros (side:ros) "iron", of unknown etymology, perhaps (as with

other

> metal terms, such as molubdos and variants) Iberian.
>
> If the Basque form was *sildar, we are perhaps dealing with a

modification

> somehow of the silver word (*silabar, *silubar, *sidabr-, *surebr-

etc.),

> which I still feel must somehow relate to Akk. parzillu, Hebr.

barzel

> "iron", perhaps by metathesis of the two elements bar-zilV > zilV-

bar [cf.

> possibly Akk. annaku "tin,lead" (< Sum. an(ak)-ku(g) "sky metal"?)

and

> Hittite kuwanna "copper" < ku(g) ana(k)?].

Your explanation seems to fit better than mine these data, but I
still have some doubt. In Sumerian /barzil/ is "iron", and I found no
similar semantic shift "iron" > "silver" (or viceversa) in any other
language. /barzil/ was borrowed by Semitic language (e.g.
Hebrew /barzel/). The topic is still thorny.

> >Celtic /*itus/ derives from /*pitu-/ and developed to the Welsh

word,

> >I knew of it. But it central meaning seems to be "corn". An

homophone

> >item is found also in Welsh hydronyms, but in that case it cannot
> >have the same origin.
>
> I think it can. One of the meanings of *peit- is "fat" (cf.

Llóbrega,

> Vall-Llóbrega and other Catalan place names derived from lubricare,
> lubricatus "fatty, slippery").

Now I make some search on Pokorny IE Wo"rterbuch, and I found *peit-
"fat" > "nourishment" (German Nahrung).
I was definitely wrong in quoting Greek /pi:^sos/ as "pea".
It is /pi/sos/ with short /o/, while /pi:^sos/ has the meaning
of "swamp, bog". I beg your pardon. But in my Latin vocabulary I
found /pi:sum/ with long /i:/. Probably it is a printing mistake.

All this makes things even more complicated. I don't believe that a
semantic shift "fat" > "cereal" is probable. Pokorny is an excellent
author, but it was son of the historic period in which he lived.
So he often tries to explain Homer with Homer.

Sincerely

Marco