[tied] Re: PIE's closest relatives

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Marco Moretti"
<marcomoretti69@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:
> > On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:04:37 +0000, Marco Moretti
> > <marcomoretti69@...> wrote:
> >
> > >--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...>
> wrote:
> > >> On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 06:05:50 +0000, Glen Gordon
> <glengordon01@...>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >Marco inputs:
> > >> >>Akkadian /eru:/ is not from /*weru:/.
> > >> >
> > >> >Alright. Where _is_ it from?
> > >>
> > >> The usual transcription erû(m) (not eru:) suggests a

contracted

> > >vowel,
> > >> probably /i/ + /u/. I think the form can be reconstructed as
> > >*weri?-u(m)
> > >> (acc. *weri?-a(m), etc.), but that's based on old notes, I'm

not

> > >100% sure.
> > >>
> > >> An interesting word in this context is the Hebrew for copper,

<?

> > >arad>
> > >> (aleph-resh-daleth).
> > >
> > >In Akkadian final -u:(m) (I have no characters with circumflex
> > >accents on my keybord, in Italy they are considered useless) can
> be
> > >not only from /i/ + /u/ but also from /a/ + /u/ or from /u/

+ /u/.

> >
> > Yes. In this case, however, the form seems to go back to /i/+/u/
> (but my
> > source is indirect: Vennemann, to be exact).
> >
> > >Now, I know the Hebrew word /?ara:d/, "bronze", but I'm not
> satisfied
> > >with an ancient /w/ becoming /?/ in Hebrew.
> >
> > Semitic w- > Hebrew y-.
>
> Yes, my favorite example is of course:
> /yayin/ "wine" < /*waynu/,
> but there are many others: /ya:re:ah_/ "moon", /ya:ro:q/ "green"

and

> so on. Semitic w- never changes to ?-.
>
> > >/?ara:d/ is probably
> > >unrelated both with /eru:(m)/ and with /urudu/, due to

impervious

> > >phonetic difficulties.
> >
> > It cannot correspond to (w)erû(m), but a connection with <urudu>
> doesn't
> > seem too far-fetched. An original *arudu could explain both

forms,

> with
> > vowel harmony giving Sum. urudu and Hebr. ?arad(a), respectively.
>
> Tonic /a:/ vowel in Hebrew /?ara:d/ is in any case difficult, but
> your idea is very interesting. In this case, we should think that
> German Erz "(copper-)ore" < Old High German aruzzi < *arudi- is

also

> related. Details of this loanword are however still obscure.
>

As I've mentioned some times before, Schrijver lists an alternating
stem *arud-/*raud- as a root in his "language of bird names"
substrate in Celtic, Germanic, Baltic, Baltic Finnic. Piotr insisted
that they are native PIE roots and should be written with *h2e-/*h2-,
not *a-/nothing. But PIE is supposed to be a very /a/-poor language,
unlike "Old European" which is full of /a/'s, also initially. So are
these roots "Old European" roots in PIE, and *arud- an early loan
from wherever which was treated in the same way?

> I cannot acces Venneman's pages, they are simply "sclerotized". Can
> you provide some useful link? I know that Venneman studied Basque

and

> Germanic substratum, although it's thought to be unreliable.
>

I got through after 10-15 tries Saturday; thought his Alma Mater had
closed for the week-end.

Torsten