Re: [tied] Baltic-Slavic disintegration

From: Joao
Message: 29382
Date: 2004-01-11

Was there any attempt to analyze etymologically the word Neuros (pl.Neuroi) ? Any Balto-Slavic etmology for it? Something like *Njauras or *Nev( )ras ?
 
Joao SL
----- Original Message -----
From: george knysh
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Baltic-Slavic disintegration

--- Alexander Stolbov <astolbov@...> wrote:
> George Knysh wrote:

> > my favourite Balto-Slavic "separation" scenario,
> > currently based on historical and archaeological
> data
> > only.*****
>
> (AS)Could you please give references to this
scenario?

*****GK: Very briefly. I see the proto-Slavs as still
contained within the "Neurian" complex of Herodotus.
They would be the southernmost "Neuri", politically a
part of Scythia (there were Scythian outposts on a
couple of locations along the Prypjat'-Pripet). In the
forested areas of this territory, the population was
overwhelmingly Baltoid (represented by the Milograd
and Pidhirtsi cultures). In the area between the
forest line and the upper Boh(Bog), the population was
mixed, with substantial numbers of Thrakoid
descendants of the Chornolis' culture present. The
ruling class of the entire complex would have been
Iranic Scythian (since "Colaxais" had divided his
kingdom into three parts for his descendants), and it
is to them that the term "Aukhata" would principally
apply. I imagine that it is primarily in this
political context of ca. 650-250 that the "Neurian"
Baltoid proto-Slavs evolved into the Slavs of history,
though I would not rule out an even earlier beginning,
in Cimmerian times. The Royal Scythians merely
replaced the Commerians as overlords of a territory
the latter had conquered a century earlier (c. 750:
good archaeological evidence for the demise of the
"Chornolis forstresses" and the advent of steppe
elements to their north). Anyway by the time of the
Scythian collapse in  the 3rd c., accompanied by large
scale outmigration of "Aukhata", the southern Neuri
would have developed many if not most of the traits
which would be characteristic of "Slavs". The early
Slav hydronyms are within this Scythian-dominated
"Neurian" area. More below.****
>(AS) Pozhaluista, ne beyte menya slishkom silno :)

****GK: Ne zhuritsja! (:=))****

> (AS)Currently I'm playing with a hypothetical
scenario
> where Common Balto-Slavic
> is represented by Pozdnyakovo culture (between Oka
> and Upper Volga since
> about 1600 BC or some earlier). This culture had
> intensive contacts with
> Srubnay, Abashevo and Andronovo cultures - the
> "Satem block" in this
> scenario. Slavs separate from them about 1200 BC in
> the form of the
> Bondarikhino culture (there are archaeological
> evidences for such a
> movement) in the Dnieper Left Bank steppe-forest
> area.

*****GK: What are the arguments against the B. culture
being a late Ugrian culture? Its early pottery has
strong affinities to the Pit-Comb cultures of Eastern
Europe usually considered Ugrian (even more
specifically, to the P-C cultures close to
Karelia)****

(AS)Balts have to leave
> the old region because of the press of the
> "Setchataya keramika" cultures
> (sorry, don't remember the English term) and occupy
> the territory of the
> Sosnitsa culture in the Middle Dnieper basin . Later
> (in the Iron Age) they
> form the Dnieper-Dvina and some other cultures.
> The first Slavic culture of the Iron Age according
> to this scenario should
> be the Milograd culture ,

*****GK: My scenario is not wholly alien to this view,
though, as you've seen, I would tend to characterize
only the southern part of the Milograd-Pirhirtsi area
as proto-Slavic, and only from ca. 750(650) BC at the
earliest ,when the differentiation process began in
earnest)******

which later survives an
> East Germanic invasion
> (foreign Zarubinetskaya c.)

*****GK: I have doubts that the Zarubynetska c. as a
whole can be viewed as "East Germanic". It is clearly
an organic blend of a number of elements (local
Milograd/Pidhirtsi) (predominant), Scythian (Thrakoid
remnant), and Pomorian (esp. in the west). The only
clearly Germanic component here is the Jastorf
culture, which is a minor contribution to the mix. I'm
not clear as to the identity of the Pomorians (Balts?
Balts+ element X?). There are three main groups of
"Zarubinians". In the mid-1rst c. AD the western one
abandons Polissia and moves southward where it
integrates with a Germanic and Dacian population to
form the so-called "Zubrytska" culture (centred around
today's Lviv). UKrainian archaeologists consider it
Slavic, but I have my doubts. Referencing to to
historical data, part of these would have been
"Costobocans" and others the mysterious "Igylliones"
of Ptolemy. In any case it is only the remaining
Zarubinian groups of the north (by now this is the
"Late Zarubinian culture" (mid-1rst to end of 2nd c.)
which are the "Stavani" of Ptolemy, that portion of
the "Greater Venedae" abutting on the Scythian Alans.
I agree with Trubachov that the Stavani are the Slavs
(archaeologically this is perfect: Late Zarubinia
develops into the "Kyiv culture"
, and then we have the historic Slavic explosion). But
I would also argue that the Ptolemaic nomenclature,
which reflects the Indo-Iranic notion of "glory", is
an argument in favour of that concept rather than
"word" or "speech" being the original meaning of Slav.
The Slavs, then,would have historically constituted
themselves in the process of successful resistance to
the Alanic onslaughts subsequent to 50 AD (although
losing a bit of territory). These struggles with the
Spali (as these Alans were called) left traces in
South Russian popular imagination (the "ispolins").
Their military aristocracy would have adopted that
label (translated and passed on by their Iranic
neighbours). Anyway, that's where I am for the
moment.******

  and produces the Kyiv
> culture. After the Hunnic
> invasion the latter culture starts disintegrating to
> produce early Slavic
> branches - the culture of Pskov long kurgans
> (Krivichi), the Pen'kovo c.
> (Ants), the Romanovo-Borshchevo c. (Vyatichi ?), the
> Prague c. (the rest of
> Slavs).
> This is just a working hypothesis.
>
> Alexander
>
>
>
>
>
>




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