Re: [tied] Re: PIE's closest relatives

--- Alexander Stolbov <astolbov@...> wrote:

> Let us clear up the situation together.
> For the comparison of relative age of the
> Srednedneprovskaya and
> Podkarpatskaya cultures (I guess it = the Podolia c.
> of your source) I use
> the corresponing volume of the "Archaeology of the
> URRS". Unfortunately,
> only uncalibrated C14 data are given there (I guees
> in the "Archaeology of
> the Ukr. S.S.R." too)

. However it is not so bad for

> the pair comparison, as
> the same method was used in both cases and the
> correction factor must be the
> same for adjacent regions.
> A few quotations:
> "The chronological borders of the Srednedneprovskaya
> culture are defined as
> 26 - 15 centuries BC. The earlier phase is dated as
> 26 - 24 cent. BC.

*****GK: There are roughly similar dates in the
"Arkheologiia Ukr.R.S.R.". At the time of its
fundamental "floruit" the Seredn.C.'s steppe neighbour
was the Catacomb.c.*****

It was

> probably synchronic to the 2nd group of of the
> Middle Dnieper variant of the
> Yamnay culture tombs (with side squirmed positions),
> to the Late Tripolye
> sites of the Sophievka group,

*****GK: This synchronicity for the earlier ("recent
migrants from the west" phase) is also pointed out in
the "Arkh.Ukr", with emphasis on the Stretivka
cemetery.******

to the early phase of

> the Upper Dniester
> variant of the Podkarpatskaya culture,

*****GK: This is where the difference lies. The
"Arkh.Ukr." sees the earliest Seredn.C. as much later
than the Upper Dnister (and other early "western"
variants of CW), and as an eastern-wandering offshoot
thereof. The date of these early "western" CW groups
is only given relatively to discovered objects from
other cultures. There is synchronicity both to Late
Trypilia (NB NOT the LATEST Sofiivka Trylilia, but
Trypilian cultures such as Horodsk and Koshelivtsi)
AND (this is apparently the key) to the Funnel Beaker
culture. This points to the mid-IVth millennium****

and to the

> Neolithic sites of the
> Upper Dnieper region."

> "The absolute chronology of the Upper Dniester group
> [of the Podkarpatskaya
> culture] can be defined only approximately.
> I.K.Sveshnikov dates its first
> phase as about the beginning of the 3rd quarter of
> the 3rd mill. BC." [i.e.
> since about 2500 BC]
> "The early phase of the Podolian group [of the
> Podkarpatskaya culture] is
> dated by I.K.Sveshnikov as the 3rd quarter of the
> 3rd mill. BC" [i.e. since
> about 2500 BC]

*****GK: In both cases the early phases of these
cultures is placed by the "Arkh. Ukr." about 1,000
years earlier.*****

> "There are no data for absolute dating of the
> Gorodok-Zdolbitskaya culture.
> It could be estimated as 21 - 17 centuries BC"

*****GK: In "Arkh.Ukr." the earlier, "Horodok" phase
of this culture is viewed as synchronous to the early
phase of Upper Dnister and Podilia. The very archaic
nature of its lithic inventory is emphasized. At the
"Horodok" phase the population was largely involved in
cattle rearing. The ensuing "Zdovbytska" phase sees a
more even type of economy (more evidence for
agriculture). And eventually this region evolves into
the "Stzhyzhov" CW culture (synchronous to
Serednodnipr. and Fatyanovo).******

>(AS) My opinion: this culture [GK:Yamna(ya)] begins

when Eneolithic

> tribes of Lower Volga get in
> touch with the Maikop culture and obtain from the
> latter the Near East
> innovations of that epoque: arsenical bronze and
> wagons with solid wheels.
> Besides, some more scecific cultural features were
> adopted: stone sceptres
> (and axes) as the sign of power and the burial rite
> (individual ingumation
> under kurgans). The Corded Ware cultures, as well as
> those cultures which
> remained in the steppe, inherited all of these
> innovations and features.
>
> > GK: For instance, the existence of an
> "exogamic"
> > arrangement between CW and Late Trypilian
> Vykhvatynska
> > culture (itself a source of Usatove). The
> V.Trypilian
> > men seem to have all had CW women (judging by
> their
> > extant cemeteries)
>
> Do I understand you correctly: there are traces of
> the influence of CW on
> the Late Tripolye, but not opposite?

*****GK: Apart from a few imported objects the
influence of Trypilia on the earliest western CW is
difficult to prove. The economy of these first western
CW groups was fundamentally pastoral. Perhaps the
gradual switchover to a more balanced set-up was due
to the continuously absorbed Trypilians. But this is
speculative.*****

>
> > GK: Serednodniprovska certainly had bronze
> > objects aplenty in its inventories. But the
> earliest
> > western CW I mentioned above did not. Only some
> copper
> > objects. And there is demonstrated synchronicity
> > between these earliest CW (apparently
> pastoralists)
> > and the Funnel Beaker culture. IMO they moved
> westward
> > in the centuries following the crisis of classical
> > Trypilia (the end of their so-called "proto-towns"
> c.
> > 3800 BC or thereabouts). In a later phase, again
> prior
> > to the emergence of Serednodniprovska, these
> groups
> > also had cultural contacts with the Globular
> Amphorae
> > c.******
>
> What a conclusion do you make from this? The most
> early groups of CW are
> descendants not of Yamnay, but of Sredniy Stog?

*****GK: I am fairly certain that they were migrants
from the "Skelya horizon" area east of the Dnipro. And
I assume that they quickly became a mixed lot (judging
from their burial practices). I think that there were
many ex-Trypilians among them, in the wake of the
catastrophic end of Classical Trypilia's agricultural
experiment. So I wouldn't make the Serednyj Stih =>
western Corded Ware equation absolute, though the
fumdamental cultural impulse was certainly from that
area.*****

> Did that earliest CW have wagons, sceptres and
> kurgans according to your
> sources?

*****GK: No evidence as to waggons. They were not
included in the burials as in later Yamna, and have
otherwise not survived. No scepters either, though
many burials had stone battle axes (some only stone
knives). Kurgan burials predominated, but were not
exclusive (and in many kurgans the remains were not
inhumations but calcinations). In the Podilia group,
there were many "flat" burials.******

>
> Alexander
>
>
>

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