Re: [tied] Re: PIE's closest relatives

From: Alexander Stolbov
Message: 29377
Date: 2004-01-11

George Knysh wrote:
> *****GK: According to my sources (incl. the
> "Archaeology of the Ukr. S.S.R."), the earliest pf the
> western CW groups were those of Horodok
> (Volynia),upper Dnister, and Podillja (Podolia), with
> the latter two dividing into two phases.*****
>
> > and Srednedneprovskaya (the earlies of the northern
> > CW stream) cultures
> > emerged actually in the same time.
>
> ****GK: The Serednodniprovs'ka (Srednedneprovskaya)c.[
> NB. I mislabeled this as the "Dnipro" c. Sorry. I was
> working from memory] is actually considerably
> younger****

Let us clear up the situation together.
For the comparison of relative age of the Srednedneprovskaya and
Podkarpatskaya cultures (I guess it = the Podolia c. of your source) I use
the corresponing volume of the "Archaeology of the URRS". Unfortunately,
only uncalibrated C14 data are given there (I guees in the "Archaeology of
the Ukr. S.S.R." too). However it is not so bad for the pair comparison, as
the same method was used in both cases and the correction factor must be the
same for adjacent regions.
A few quotations:
"The chronological borders of the Srednedneprovskaya culture are defined as
26 - 15 centuries BC. The earlier phase is dated as 26 - 24 cent. BC. It was
probably synchronic to the 2nd group of of the Middle Dnieper variant of the
Yamnay culture tombs (with side squirmed positions), to the Late Tripolye
sites of the Sophievka group, to the early phase of the Upper Dniester
variant of the Podkarpatskaya culture, and to the Neolithic sites of the
Upper Dnieper region."
"The absolute chronology of the Upper Dniester group [of the Podkarpatskaya
culture] can be defined only approximately. I.K.Sveshnikov dates its first
phase as about the beginning of the 3rd quarter of the 3rd mill. BC." [i.e.
since about 2500 BC]
"The early phase of the Podolian group [of the Podkarpatskaya culture] is
dated by I.K.Sveshnikov as the 3rd quarter of the 3rd mill. BC" [i.e. since
about 2500 BC]
"There are no data for absolute dating of the Gorodok-Zdolbitskaya culture.
It could be estimated as 21 - 17 centuries BC"
I'd like to stress again - all the figures given are for uncalibrated C14
technique. The real calendar dates must be a few centures older.

What does the "Archaeology of the Ukr. S.S.R." write about this matter?

> > (AS)How do you date the emergence of the Yamna(ya)
> > cultural complex?
>
> *****GK: Here I follow the chronological system of
> Ukrainian archaeology, which sees "Yamna" as a
> successor culture to e.g. Serednyj Stih. But I
> understand that Russian archaeology may have a deeper
> chronology. That's no problem, and we can make
> adjustments so as to avoid merely verbal issues.*****

Yes, the Yamnay culture emerged some eastern than the territory of Ukraine.
Its beginning is usually estimated as about 3500 BC.

My opinion: this culture begins when Eneolithic tribes of Lower Volga get in
touch with the Maikop culture and obtain from the latter the Near East
innovations of that epoque: arsenical bronze and wagons with solid wheels.
Besides, some more scecific cultural features were adopted: stone sceptres
(and axes) as the sign of power and the burial rite (individual ingumation
under kurgans). The Corded Ware cultures, as well as those cultures which
remained in the steppe, inherited all of these innovations and features.

> *****GK: For instance, the existence of an "exogamic"
> arrangement between CW and Late Trypilian Vykhvatynska
> culture (itself a source of Usatove). The V.Trypilian
> men seem to have all had CW women (judging by their
> extant cemeteries)******

Do I understand you correctly: there are traces of the influence of CW on
the Late Tripolye, but not opposite?

> ******GK: Serednodniprovska certainly had bronze
> objects aplenty in its inventories. But the earliest
> western CW I mentioned above did not. Only some copper
> objects. And there is demonstrated synchronicity
> between these earliest CW (apparently pastoralists)
> and the Funnel Beaker culture. IMO they moved westward
> in the centuries following the crisis of classical
> Trypilia (the end of their so-called "proto-towns" c.
> 3800 BC or thereabouts). In a later phase, again prior
> to the emergence of Serednodniprovska, these groups
> also had cultural contacts with the Globular Amphorae
> c.******

What a conclusion do you make from this? The most early groups of CW are
descendants not of Yamnay, but of Sredniy Stog?
Did that earliest CW have wagons, sceptres and kurgans according to your
sources?

Alexander