Re: [tied] Re: PIE's closest relatives

--- Alexander Stolbov <astolbov@...> wrote:

> You write that there were eastward movements of the
> Corded Ware groups. -
> OK, I have nothing against it.
> I just wanted to demonstrate that there must not be
> Baltic or Slavic tribes
> among them. Otherwise logic leads us to an unlikely
> situation which I
> described in my previous post.

*****GK: I have no opinion as to the presence or
absence of Balts in this reflux. I totally agree that
there could have been no Slavs, since this movement
occurred nearly 3,000 years prior to the emergence of
the latter as a distinct group, at least according to
my current scenario. I suppose there could have been
no Germans either (too early).******

>
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Alexander
> Stolbov" <astolbov@...>
> > wrote:
> > it would be possible to claim that Proto-Balts
> > > (and Proto-Slavs) like Proto-Germans were a part
> of the Corded Ware
> > > movement, and they moved first westward but then
> returned back
> > (eastward) to
> > > the Middle Dnieper and Upper Volga to form there
> the Fatyanovo c.
> > (also a
> > > Corded Ware c.).
> >
> > GK: Further conclusions aside, we do have a
> few indubitable
> > archaeological facts. I'm not sure about the early
> "northward"
> > situation,
>
> (AS)The movement of the Corded Ware groups westward

and

> northward started
> simultaneously. The Podkarpatskaya (the earlies of
> the western CW stream)

*****GK: According to my sources (incl. the
"Archaeology of the Ukr. S.S.R."), the earliest pf the
western CW groups were those of Horodok
(Volynia),upper Dnister, and Podillja (Podolia), with
the latter two dividing into two phases.*****

> and Srednedneprovskaya (the earlies of the northern
> CW stream) cultures
> emerged actually in the same time.

****GK: The Serednodniprovs'ka (Srednedneprovskaya)c.[
NB. I mislabeled this as the "Dnipro" c. Sorry. I was
working from memory] is actually considerably
younger****

The latter could

> even be a bit younger.
>
>
> > but the movement "westward" from the PIE massif
> (as you
> > call it) began long before the emergence of the
> Yamna(ya) cultural
> > complex.
>
> (AS)How do you date the emergence of the Yamna(ya)
> cultural complex?

*****GK: Here I follow the chronological system of
Ukrainian archaeology, which sees "Yamna" as a
successor culture to e.g. Serednyj Stih. But I
understand that Russian archaeology may have a deeper
chronology. That's no problem, and we can make
adjustments so as to avoid merely verbal issues.*****

>
> > There is solid evidence for the presence of
> > substantial "Corded Ware" groups in the area
> between Trypilia and
> > Funnel Beaker while the latter two cultures still
> existed. There is,
> > subsequently, evidence for close cultural
> relationships
> > between "Corded Ware" and Trypilia on the Dnister.
>
> (AS)Please, point the most important of them.

*****GK: For instance, the existence of an "exogamic"
arrangement between CW and Late Trypilian Vykhvatynska
culture (itself a source of Usatove). The V.Trypilian
men seem to have all had CW women (judging by their
extant cemeteries)******

>
> > A third phase sees
> > the emergence of the mixed Usatove culture near
> Odesa (a mixture of
> > Corded Ware, Trypilian and Lower Mykhajlivka
> elements) which is
> > synchronous with the start of Late Trypilia
> (enormously influenced by
> > Corded Ware) and Yamna. And centuries later, we do
> see a reflux of
> > Corded Ware eastward, creating both Dnipro and
> Fatyanovo cultures.
>
> (AS)As to Fatyanovo culture, some scolars think so,
> other believe that Fatyanovo
> emerged as a result of moving the people of
> Srednedneprovskaya culture
> further northeastward. I don't have my own firm
> opinion about this.
> "Dnipro culture" = "Srednedneprovskaya culture" ? If
> so, I disagree with
> your statement in this part. This culture is not
> younger than the earliest
> of the western Corded Ware stream.

*****GK: It definitely seems to be. Cf. below re
bronze.***

>
> > The Dnipro Corded Ware actually covers earlier
> Yamna sites.
>
> (AS)Yes, it is.
>
> > At about
> > the same epoch "Corded Ware" pushes strongly
> further west into
> > Europe. Mallory's difficulties in comparing Yamna
> and Corded Ware
> > stems from the fact that he is comparing Yamna and
> Corded Ware phase
> > IV, rather than the Skelya horizon cultures (e.g.
> Serednyj Stih,
> > Novodanylivka etc.) and Corded Ware phase
> I.*******
>
>(AS) Do you mean that one should search for the roots

of

> the Corded Ware culture
> in the Eneolithic cultures, not in the Yamnay one? I
> could agree only if
> Corded Ware people did not have the arsenical bronze
> metallurgy. This
> technology was developed somewhere in North Syria or
> East Anatolia and was
> brought to the steppes by Maikop culture (North
> Caucasus). The Yamnay
> culture is the only possible link between Maikop and
> Corded Ware. That's why
> I'm sure in this question.

******GK: Serednodniprovska certainly had bronze
objects aplenty in its inventories. But the earliest
western CW I mentioned above did not. Only some copper
objects. And there is demonstrated synchronicity
between these earliest CW (apparently pastoralists)
and the Funnel Beaker culture. IMO they moved westward
in the centuries following the crisis of classical
Trypilia (the end of their so-called "proto-towns" c.
3800 BC or thereabouts). In a later phase, again prior
to the emergence of Serednodniprovska, these groups
also had cultural contacts with the Globular Amphorae
c.******

>
> Alexander
>
>

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