Re: [tied] Re: PIE's closest relatives

George, I seem to formulate my thoughts so unclear that you misunderstood
me. Sorry.
You write that there were eastward movements of the Corded Ware groups. -
OK, I have nothing against it.
I just wanted to demonstrate that there must not be Baltic or Slavic tribes
among them. Otherwise logic leads us to an unlikely situation which I
described in my previous post.

Still details of the topic are interesting and I would like to make some
comment to your post (see below).

----- Original Message -----
From: "gknysh" <gknysh@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 6:50 AM
Subject: [tied] Re: PIE's closest relatives


> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Alexander Stolbov" <astolbov@...>
> wrote:
> it would be possible to claim that Proto-Balts
> > (and Proto-Slavs) like Proto-Germans were a part of the Corded Ware
> > movement, and they moved first westward but then returned back
> (eastward) to
> > the Middle Dnieper and Upper Volga to form there the Fatyanovo c.
> (also a
> > Corded Ware c.).
>
> *****GK: Further conclusions aside, we do have a few indubitable
> archaeological facts. I'm not sure about the early "northward"
> situation,

The movement of the Corded Ware groups westward and northward started
simultaneously. The Podkarpatskaya (the earlies of the western CW stream)
and Srednedneprovskaya (the earlies of the northern CW stream) cultures
emerged actually in the same time. The latter could even be a bit younger.


> but the movement "westward" from the PIE massif (as you
> call it) began long before the emergence of the Yamna(ya) cultural
> complex.

How do you date the emergence of the Yamna(ya) cultural complex?

> There is solid evidence for the presence of
> substantial "Corded Ware" groups in the area between Trypilia and
> Funnel Beaker while the latter two cultures still existed. There is,
> subsequently, evidence for close cultural relationships
> between "Corded Ware" and Trypilia on the Dnister.

Please, point the most important of them.

> A third phase sees
> the emergence of the mixed Usatove culture near Odesa (a mixture of
> Corded Ware, Trypilian and Lower Mykhajlivka elements) which is
> synchronous with the start of Late Trypilia (enormously influenced by
> Corded Ware) and Yamna. And centuries later, we do see a reflux of
> Corded Ware eastward, creating both Dnipro and Fatyanovo cultures.

As to Fatyanovo culture, some scolars think so, other believe that Fatyanovo
emerged as a result of moving the people of Srednedneprovskaya culture
further northeastward. I don't have my own firm opinion about this.
"Dnipro culture" = "Srednedneprovskaya culture" ? If so, I disagree with
your statement in this part. This culture is not younger than the earliest
of the western Corded Ware stream.

> The Dnipro Corded Ware actually covers earlier Yamna sites.

Yes, it is.

> At about
> the same epoch "Corded Ware" pushes strongly further west into
> Europe. Mallory's difficulties in comparing Yamna and Corded Ware
> stems from the fact that he is comparing Yamna and Corded Ware phase
> IV, rather than the Skelya horizon cultures (e.g. Serednyj Stih,
> Novodanylivka etc.) and Corded Ware phase I.*******

Do you mean that one should search for the roots of the Corded Ware culture
in the Eneolithic cultures, not in the Yamnay one? I could agree only if
Corded Ware people did not have the arsenical bronze metallurgy. This
technology was developed somewhere in North Syria or East Anatolia and was
brought to the steppes by Maikop culture (North Caucasus). The Yamnay
culture is the only possible link between Maikop and Corded Ware. That's why
I'm sure in this question.

Alexander