Re: [tied] Re: Non-Indo-European in Germanic

From: Joao
Message: 29023
Date: 2004-01-02

Are some of the putative "Pre-Germanic" substrata in Proto-Germianic shared with Proto-Baltic, Proto-Slavic or Proto-Celtic?
 
Joao SL
----- Original Message -----
From: Alexander Stolbov
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Non-Indo-European in Germanic

Yes, these loans are recent - only in the end of the 1st millennium first
Slavic groups appeared in the Beloozero region. By the way this region is
traditionally associated with Ves' from Letopis' (Russian Chronicles) and
later with well known Vepses, i.e. with Finno-Baltic, not Saamic people. In
other words Slavs found there only remainders of old Saamic population which
was intensively substituted with new Finno-Baltic tribes.
The Beloe lake is situated between Upper Volga and the Onega lake, about a
thousand km away from regions where Saami live now.
The next region with loanwords from Saamic is the Onega lake.
Further to the North one finds Saamic graves of 12-15 centuries on the
Solovetskiye islands in the White sea.

Thus we can trace the way of Saami:
[presumably Volga region, where ALL other branches of the Finnic languages -
Finno-Permic, Volga-Finnic and Finno-Baltic (Ves') - were presented] > the
Beloe lake > the Onega lake > Northern Karelia > Lapland

As Saami came to Lapland from the South-East, they just could not come
simultaneously from the South-West (South  Scandinavia). That's why I'm not
surprised that no Saamic loanwords are found in Proto-Germanic.

Alexander


----- Original Message -----
From: "Piotr Gasiorowski" <piotr.gasiorowski@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Non-Indo-European in Germanic


> 02-01-04 13:58, Alexander Stolbov wrote:
>
> > On the other hand, Saamic loanwords are found among Russian dialectal
words
> > in the region of the Beloe lake (the White lake) and the eastern shore
of
> > the Onega lake.
>
> These, however are recent loans into the local Slavic dialects. The
> original question was about loans from Sámi or Finnic into
> Proto-Germanic, not into the modern Germanic languages (so <sauna> and
> <kantele> don't count either :-))
>
> Piotr



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