[tied] Re: etyma for Craciun...

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Mate Kapovic" wrote:

>> I understand Marius's assertion above this way: Romanians have
>> modified loanwords from Hungarian according to their whims
>> (feelings-cum-own rules). [...] In addition, he says: he expects
>> Slavs to have felt as free to neglect a Hungarian influence
>> (here: as far as stresses are of concern).

That is to account for the practical _possibility_ to have the
stress pattern changed for some reason.

> He cannot expect that because Romanian and Slavic stress patterns
> are not the same.

I didn't say that Romanians and Russians should change the stress
for the very same reasons. I said that I cannot think of Hungarian
stress pattern as something perfectly immutable when words are
imported in another language, since that happens (for several
different reasons, not only suffixation) in Romanian.

> Romanian has to stress the last syllable in the word with the
> sufix -un.

... such as "scáun" :-)

> Romanian stress depends on the sufix, Slavic doesn't.

If any.

> He did compare it because he thinks that if Romanians change
> the accent place in Hungarian loanwords the Russians would do
> the same.

Well, that's a SF investigation of hidden angles of my mind I'm
not aware of. :-)
Actually, I did not compare anything. May I repeat that {if
Romanians could have in many occasions change the stress in
Hungarian loanwords} => {the stress pattern of loanwords is not
to be thought as fixed forever in every language} => {Russians
_could_ eventually have done the same (in the sense: having the
stress pattern changed in some Hungarian loanword for their good
own reasons)} => {in particular, for the word discussed which
apparently exhibits polnoglasie}.

> Russian would just keep the root stress because there is no
> reason to pull it back.

Rather: Russians have no suffix-reason to pull it back. It might
have other reasons, unless you're perfectly informed on the subject
and you can guarantee within your knowledge that no Hungarian
loanword in Russian had the stress shifted from the first syllable
for some reason.

> Romanian has to, as you said because the sufix -un has to be
> accented. In Slavic, it doesn't have to.

Sorry, but I really don't get your point on that. Why on earth
do you insist on Romanian word stress?! it is by no means a loan
from Hungarian, so discussing what should have been if it would,
looks terribly useless.

Regards,
Marius Iacomi