--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Mate Kapovic" wrote:
>> Aren't you fighting a straw man of your own making? Of course there
are
>> Slavic words of Romanian origin, and even Albanian words borrowed
into
>> Slavic via Romanian (one example from my native Polish is <watra>
'a
>> fire' in the dialect of the Tatra highlanders). I can't speak for
Mate,
>> but as a result of the present discussion I'm inclined to accept
the
>> Balkan Romance etymology of <koroc^jun> etc., with borrowing from
>> Romanian into Slavic rather than the other way round.
>
> Certainly not.
This alleged "certainty" is far from being a sign of probity in
approaching
a complex issue as the debated word really is.
> The word is present in almost all Slavic lgs, from Croatian to
Russian.
"almost"??? How exactly do you count these Slavic languages? The term
is
not present in Polish, Czech, Slovenian, regular Ukrainian (it is
present
only in Transcarpathic region and by Ukrainians living intermingled
with
Romanians), regular Slovakian (still only in Transcarpathic region),
not
to mention the bunch of minor Slavic tongues, and it is only a
"somekind
of a name" (with your own words) in Serbian/Croatian. That would
hardly
make "almost". Usual Slavic words for `Christmas` are variants of
[boZitS]
(Polish, Serbian/Croatian, Slovenian, Czech, Bulgarian), "v(i)anoce"
(Slovakian and Czech(!)), "rozhdestvo" in Russian and "rizdvo" in
Ukrainian. Actually, the Slavic <krac^un> is to be found in regions
near Romania or inhabited by Romanians, with the single exception of
Russian word which can perfectly be an early loanword.
> Also, the semantics in Slavic varies and it has sacred and
non-sacred
> meaning which are obviously connected.
It refers basically to some feasts. Of course, the words are
conected.
> The word is definitely Slavic and it's etymology is sound.
Such conviction deserves a better cause. It is true some people have
proposed that derivation from a genuine Slavic word for `short(er)`,
but that does not fits well semantically despite your nice try with
"short day" for solstices. Transcarpathian meaning is `Christmas` or
"ein Laib Brot, das am 24. Dez. alten Stils gebacken wird.". Bulgarian
meaning is equally `Christmas` but also "der 8. Juni, der Theodorstag
".
Russian meaning of <koroc^un> in Novgorod Chronicle (a.D. 1143) is
"Zeitbestimmung vom 15. Aug. bis zum ?" (the quotes are from
Bernecker's
"Slavische etymologisches Worterbuch"). As one can see, the meanings
are either related to Christmas, or to other feasts not linked with
solstices. It is a simple and vague coincidence that Christmas falls
some days after winter solstice.
> I think it is also ad hoc less plausable that we are dealing with a
> Balkan Romance loanword to Slavic which came all the way to Russia
> and got all kinds of non-sacred meanings in between
Not "all kinds of" but a particular celebration, different both from
Christmas and solstice. While the meaning shift from `Christmas feast`
to `some particular feast` is straightforward, the other way around
from `short` to `some particular feast` sounds... well, not exactly
like a joke, but "a kind of". In fact, Slavic <korkU>/<kratItI> have
already their own derivations in Slavic languages, with more or less
"similar looks" with <krac^un> but different meanings.
> considering that there are tones of Slavic loanwords in both
Romanian
> and Hungarian
Well, you will be happy to find out there are also many Romanian
loanwords in neighbouring Slavic languages and Hungarian.
> and much much much less of Balkan Romance loanwords common to
*every*
> Slavic lgs.
I am very unhappy with your slip from a doubtful "almost" (which does
not amount to N-1 or N-2 as previously seen) to "every". This is no
good method of arguing if you want to discuss seriously. As said, the
only remote Slavic language having this loanword is Russian, but this
can perfectly well be a not so well understood word early brought by
some authority, be it ecclesiastic or not.
> I do not have the time for details now. Maybe later.
Finis coronat opus. Do you have any other linguistical facts in
support
of your claim?!
Regards,
Marius Iacomi