[tied] Re: Pre-Germanic speculation

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Marco Moretti"
<marcomoretti69@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski
> <piotr.gasiorowski@...> wrote:
>
> > 29-10-03 13:36, tgpedersen wrote:
> >
> > > ... Borgund (Borgundærholm > Bornholm) ...
> > >
> > > For some weird reason they have same suffixes (-s, -ind, -und)

as

> the
> > > supposed Anatolian placenames in Greece (-ssos, -inthos, -

unthos),

> >
> > They are not necessarily Anatolian. <-(i)sso-> can come from more
> than
> > one source and <-inthos> could well be Thracian. In either case
> we're
> > dealing with IE suffixes. Germanic *-und- comes from PIE *-n.t-ó-

,

> i.e.
> > a thematised present participle.
>
> These suffixes are not necessarily Anatolian. But they are surely

of

> non-IE origin and very widespread in pre-IE toponymy. They are
> substratum item. In Etruscan they were still productive in common
> words such as am-inth, calu-s (pl. calu-s-ur, adject. calu-s-na,

all

> derived from calu), etc...
> Also the Thracian suffix -intho- is a substratum feature.
> Germanic *-und- comes from IE *-ntó- in IE words such as Gothic
> fijands, frijonds, and so on, but in toponyms it may derive from
> different sources.
>
> > > but the roots of the names are not recognizably IE (or

anything),

> > > except for the Wanderwort *burg- (Greek pyrgos) (according to
> EIEC),
> >
> > It's the indubitably IE root *bHerg^H- 'increase, grow strong',
> with
> > derivatives like *bHerg^Hos 'rock, mountain, barrow' (Gmc. *berga-
> ),
> > *bHr.g^H-u-, *bHr.g^H-(o)nt- 'high, tall, lofty, large'. The name
> of the
> > Burgundians corresponds _exactly_ to that of the Celtic Brigantes
> (both
> > derive from *bHr.g^H-n.t-, and both are cognate to Skt. bRha(n)t-

)

> The
> > meaning is something like 'big guys'.
>
> The root *bHerg^H- is indubitably IE, and I think the Burgundians
> correspond exactly to the Brigantes. We can add also OHG Purgunt, a
> feminine person name, corresponting exactly to Celtic Briganti:

(See

> Pokorny). So I see no necessity of considering Borgundarholmr a
> substratum item.
> For Borgund I am more skeptical. I'm not sure that this toponym is
> directly connected with Burgundians.

'Borgund' is the assumed earlier form of 'Borgundarholmr', since it
has the characteristic -und ending of Danish island. Read my posting.

> Forms like burg-, similar to IE *bHerg^H- are found also in

Urartian

> burgana > Aramaic burgo:n, Armenian burgn. Maybe an ancient IE
> loaword in Neolithic cultures.

Which means IE *bHerg^H-/*bHergH- (note the variation) might be too.

Torsten