Re: [tied] anomaly

From: Miguel Carrasquer
Message: 26693
Date: 2003-10-29

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:21:28 +0100, alex <alxmoeller@...> wrote:

>If you see Genitive in "mele" here I wonder which is the difference for
>you between
>"mintsile mele" and "mamei mele".

One is NA plural the other is GD singular, as can be seen by the article
(-le vs. -i).

>But how do you come to the idea the possesive pronoun can be in genitive?

It's not an idea, it's a fact.

>And if yes, why just the feminine and not the masculine too?

The masculine too, except that in the masculine NA = GD.

>This is an anomaly if we try to explain it trough some weiered oblique
>case in Latin.

It's not anomalous. It's simply that Romanian has inherited a two-case
system from Latin, the casus rectus (from the Latin nominative and
accusative) and the oblique (from the Latin genitive and dative).

For nouns and adjectives (and possessive pronouns), there is no difference
between NA and GD in the masculine singular and plural:

NA lupus/lupum > lupu > lup meus/meum > meu bonus/bonum > bun
GD (lupi:)/lupo: > lupu > lup (mei:)/meo: > meu bono: > bun

NA lupi:/(lupo:s) > lupi mei:/(meo:s) > mei boni > buni
GD (lupo:rum)/lupi:s > lupi (meo:rum)/mei:s > mei boni:s > buni

But there is in the feminine singular:

NA capra/capram > caprã mea/meam > mea bona(m) > bunã
GD caprae/caprae > capre meae/meae > mee > mele bonae > bune

NA caprae/(capra:s) > capre meae/(mea:s) > mee > mele bonae > bune
GD (capra:rum)/capri:s > *capri (mea:rum)/mei:s > *mei -- bune
(now: capre) (now: mele)

The feminine oblique plural has been assimilated to the NA plural, under
influence of the class III nouns (in -e), where there was no difference.

Pronouns (including the article) show more distinctions:

masc. fem.
NA -l(u) or -le < illu(m), ille -a < illa(m)
GD -lui < *illui -i < *illaei

NA -i < illi -le < illae
GD -lor < illo:ru(m) > -lor

Similarly acest, acestui; aceSti, acestor; aceastã, acestei; aceste,
acestor etc. and the indefinite article un, unui; o, unei; unor.


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...