Re: [tied] husk

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003, alex wrote:

> Jens Elmegaard Rasmussen wrote:
>
> > Re-borrowing of a word is not uncommon, there are many instances of
> > that. What it takes for the Patrone story to be true is that somebody
> > translates that from its Latin source meaning 'host' into Romanian
> > and then finds a way to embellish oasp- so that it looks a bit like
> > Latin hospes. That would then be the word for 'cartridge', of which
> > 'pod' would be a slightly metaphorical meaning. The connection
> > between 'husk' and 'pod' is no more of a problem in this case than it
> > is other way around. I do not know if there can have been a native
> > variant of the word oaspe that could have been picked and used in
> > these specialized meanings. But the semantic story looks so familiar
> > that it might be worth somebody's trouble to follow the lead.
> >
> > Jens
>
>
> Jens, first about German "Patrone"
> This word is not from Latin or MLatin but a loan from French "patron"
> which was translated as "the father-form" since the original meaning in
> German was "Musterform, Modellform"; The French words is indeed from
> MLat "patronus". The semantic change is explained as follow:
> -the father is the example in the family, thus in the family of the
> things which have to be made , the one example should be the father one
> wherefrom the others are developed.

I know that, my dictionaries say the same (Dauzat, Kluge, Vasmer). My idea
is that, on that basis, somebody translated French patron (or a variant of
it) into Romanian to call some 'cover' by a word that properly means
'host'. The one who did that apparently did not consult the dictionaries
we have. The little reservoir of ink you (used to) insert into a
fountain-pen is (was) called "Patrone" in German - it looks like a bullit.
The Romanian meaning, if I'm correct, must be secondary to that and so
very young.

>
> Now about the Rom. "hoaspã.
> I fail to say here any way for the semantic develpoment of hospe to
> "hoaspã" for the meaning "husk". I am not aware of the meaning "pãstaie"
> (pod) George speaks about. In DEX is just the meaning of husk but no
> "pod".In my dictionary for archaisms and regionalism we find some other
> meanings. Please allow myself to give first the entry in Romanian for
> allowing the correction of the translation which I will made:
>
> hoaspã: (reg). 1) învelish (al grãuntelui de cereale, al bobului de
> fasole, de mazãre, de strugure); pielitsã, pojghitsã, coajã; 2) fâshiile
> de lemn luate de tâmplar cu gealãul, talash; 3) spumã plutitoare pe
> borshul din putini, floare
>
> I try to translate how exactly I can:
> hoaspã: (reg) 1) cover ( of: the grain of cereals, of the bean, of the
> pea, of the grape), peel; 2)wood strip which is resulting from the work
> of the carpenter, sawdust; 3)floating foam on the borsch which is within
> the barrel, the so-called "flower of the borsch"

A "cover of a pea or a bean" is "pod" in English. We are talking about the
same thing. "Husk" is the same thing from cereal grains, the raw material
of "bran" which I understand is what the "shells" of grain become when
crushed. I have a Romanian-Macedonian (!) dictionary which is very
specific about the two meanings it gives for hoaspa~, "husk, chaff" and
"dry pods of peas or beans".

> Please excuse me , but from the meaning of Latin word (guest, visitor)
> to these meanings seems to be a very long way if any.>

Yes, few can see it. And of course it may be wrong. Then why *does* the
word for 'husk, pod' look so much like the word for 'host', and is it just
a strange coincidence that an artificial "pod" (Hu"lse) is called by an
international word which also means 'host' most of the time?

Jens