From: S & L
Message: 25628
Date: 2003-09-08
----- Original Message -----
From: tolgs001
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003
Subject: [tied] Re: Some Albanian-Romanian concordances
cristi mindrut wrote:
>>don't use the romanian Dex with too much confidence though,
>>since it was made specifically to induce the opinion that
>>romanian and russian are brothers, so romanians have no
>>reason to try to free themselves from CCCP-USSR. the Dex
>>was made in the "comunist" era, and it remained so to this
>>days. It wasn't really updated, just reedited.
>This is only some sort of... urban legend. In spite of
>the fact that DLRM (Dictionarul Limbii Romîne Moderne)
>and its successor DEX (Dictionarul Explicativ al Limbii
>Române) were compilated during the commie era, they are
>solid linguistic works, their authors being the finest
>academic linguists Romania had at that time; moreover,
>these dictionaries are by no means new concoctions, they
>are based on what had been published before their editions
>(of the 50s, 60s, DEX 70s ff.).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I hope that you are not speaking seriously [especially about the
"cominternist" Iorgu Iordan but also about his "gang"!]. Otherwise we are in
big trouble. As we are indeed because in the last half of century in the
Romanian linguistics the Slavists made the ruling. And they are still -old
habits day slowly- doing it today .
Being an academician in the communist Romania had almost nothing to do with
somebody's achievements in the scientific field [this is why we had
academicians without any scientific opera what so ever!]. It was a communist
organization, as the rest . I do not know many Romanian academicians during
the communist era that did not subscribe to the devil's pact.
>For example, inter alia,
>on Atlasul Lingvistic Român, that was finished towards
>the end of the 30s, and the team was coordinated by the
>great Sextil PuScariu.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, BUT is the only one finished [and yet not entirely published as far as
I know]; in 130 years our brave "scientists" in the language field were not
able to finish yet the "big" Academic Dictionary. I think that we are the
only one in Europe yet in this situation.
>When among the authors you have
>scholars such as and Grigore BrâncuS, Ion $iadbei,
>and when the finishing was supervised by such titans as
>Dimitrie Macrea and Iorgu Iordan, then you gotta...
>încremene$ti in awe! ;^)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, you do not read in Romanian otherwise I would suggest some
web sites with some critical observations regarding your "titan" Iorgu
Iordan!
>In spite of the vicissitudes, that existed indeed (esp.
>in the 50s), these are very good works. However, etymology
>isn't their main purpose; therefore, the etym. notes
>are very brief, and in uncertain cases the authors even
>refrained from giving the extant hypotheses. For thorough
>presentations and speculations on etymology there have been
>other works. But that what's in DLRM and DEX reflects
>that what had been reached (not only by Romanian research)
>up to the printind of those editions.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DEX is "Dictionarul explicativ al limbii romane"/ie the "explanatory
dictionary of the romanian language". As far as I can see in it [ed. 1975],
for each word the etymology is given [even if as "unknown" etymology]. So,
one of it's purpose was to explain ALSO the etymology of the word along with
the meaning.
Let see how "good" the work is by giving only one example: BAN [pl. BANI ;
with the general meaning of money: odd money, etc.] which is given with
unknown etymology even if for more then half of century the Romanian
numismatists proved [Constantin Moisil in 1919/1924] that the word is coming
from DENARII BANALES which in Hungarian language were known as BÁNI DENÁROK
in the XIII-XIV century. The foreign numismatists had the same opinion; the
Hungarians starting 1916/HÓMAN Bálint and RÉTHY László in 1891; the Croatian
TRUHELKA/Truhelac Ciro/Ciro in 1897/1899].
Today, on the National Romanian Bank's web site, you can find "The first
coins ever to be issued in Walachia/ie Tara Romaneasca were minted by
Vladislav Vlaicu I (1364-1377) and were made of silver. They were called
ducats - the big ones, the dinars - the medium-sized ones, and the BAN - the
odd money". Each of these 3 size coins existed in 2 different types. The
walachian rulers will issue coins named BAN until the middle of the XV
century.
A last comment; in the 1975 edition of DEX all the words having some
ideological connotation are still explained trough the marxist ideology. So,
the BAN/money is a "good" being the "equivalent of the good's value". A
crystal -diamond theory!- pure marxist explanation.
In the last "production" of the Romanian Academy's Institute of Linguistics
"Iorgu Iordan" L [ie "micul dictionar academic" ed. 2001, which is the
equivalent of the Academic Dictionary but without the quotations] the word
BAN [pl. BANI] is STILL given with unknown etymology.
The third column of this dictionary is for the "first certify of the word".
The most ancient source quoted is "Dictionarium valachico-latinum" known for
the authors of this dictionary as "Anonymus Caransebesiensis" [why not as
his founder named it more then a century a go/ie Anonymus Lugoshiensis?],
which is dated as second half of the XVII Century. So, according to the
authors of the "micul dictionar academic", the Romanian language wasn't
specked before the second half of the XVII Century. Nice, isn't it!?
>Unfortunately, especially after 1970, and to an extreme
>extent in the 80s and after 1990, in Romania and Republic
>of Moldova (let alone the exile world in the West) there
>have circulated lots of adventurous and utterly stupid
>etymologies, based on protochronism (that wreaks havoc
>in some Romanian social strata). Those who propagate them
>are either ignorant enthusiasts, or ignorant... business
>people who know how to exploit a... market made of people
>fond of attractive prose (fairy tales).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The protochronists were never truly at "power" in Romanian. Not even in the
80's and certainly not in the 90's.
>George
S o r i n
Timisoara, Romania
P.S. I subscribe to Cristi Mindrut's advice: don't use the romanian Dex with
too much confidence!