[tied] Re: German "ge-" before participe perfect

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:

> On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:55:05 +0000, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>
> wrote:
>
> >> >It is with great relish that I point out to you, as Piotr has

done

> >> >several times to me, that Verner applies only to continuants.

Thus

> >> >[*k, *p] > Grimm [*x, *f] > Verner [G, v].
> >>
> >> Why write nonsense when it's so easy to look it up?
> >>
> >> Under Verner conditions, PIE *p, *t, *k and *s develop into

PGmc.

> >*b, *d,
> >> *g and *z. The further development of PGmc *b is as follows:
> >>
> >> Goth ON OE OS Dutch OHG
> >> initial, after /m/ b- b- b- b- b- b-
> >> between vowels -b- -f- -f- -b-/-v- -v- -b-
> >> auslaut (not -mb) -f -f -f -f -f -b
> >
> >Look up nonsense you mean?
>
> Look up Verner's law.

I looked it up in Collinge's "The laws of Indo-European" (85). At
least according to him, the whole metter isn't settled yet.

>
> >Where does that come from? Why detour over
> >*b? PIE *p > PGmc *b > ON, OE f, changing two features in the last
> >change, when you could go PIE *p > PGmc *f > Verner PGmc *v > ON,

OE -

> >*f? At least ON -f was pronounced -v, and the Scandinavian

languages

> >now write -v- for ON (and older Da, Sw) -f-. I suspect that idea
> >comes from a German, but German is the odd one out here with *b.
>
> There is no PGmc *v. There is only *b (from PIE *bh or *p

[Verner]), with

> allophonic distribution: [b] in initial position and after /m/; [B]
> elsewhere (i.e. the exact same allophonic ditribution we find in the
> Spanish phoneme /b/). Intervocalic *-b- is written <b> in Gothic,

OHG and

> OS, while it's obvious that ON, OE and Dutch -f- (-v-), i.e. merger

with

> the reflex of PGmc *f in that position, is secondary.
>

Would you care to explain? It's not obvious to me.

Torsten