Re: [tied] Phonologie

Piotr Gasiorowski wrote:

> 14-07-03 23:13, alex wrote:
>
>> Glen told me once I neew a phonologie lesson and I tried to
>> accomodate me with the idea.
>> And I got a big problem regarding the .. labiovelars.
>> I fail to see how a human mouth will change the "qW" to "p" and the
>> "gW" to "b".
>> I try to round the lips as a horse, but there is nothing which will
>> resamble an "p" or an "b".
>> It looks still like an axioma to me, but I was not able to find the
>> demonstration of it.
>> Any talented person who can explain this changes practicaly?
>
> Do horses round their lips?

Yes, they do. Never tried to feed a horse from your hand?

> Try slight protrusion instead, like a
> kiss. It's the exaggeration of the labial component that produces a
> secondary closure. The intermediate stage between [kW] and [p] may be
> a doubly articulated labial-velar stop [kP] ([k] and [p] pronounced
> at the same time). The development of [kP] to [p] is easy: the
> acoustic effect of the bilabial closure masks that of the velar one,
> so that hearers mistake an intended [kP] for [p].

The way from (kP) to (p) is indeed easy, the way to obtain the (kP) even
with the exageration of the labial component is not easy at all, at
least I could not get something in the kind.

>
> Phonetic evolution does not necessarily involve changes in the
> pronunciation of _individual speakers_. It need not be continuous
> either. You have concentrated on articulation only, but acoustic and
> auditory factors in speaker-to-hearer interaction (listening and
> faulty imitation) may be more important than articulatory ones.
>
> Piotr

True. However, it seemed to me more easier to get a kind "bg" (not gb)
and a kind of "pk" ( not kp) trough palatal pronouniciation of "b" &
"p". At least these sounds I found in real life. Of course I did just
wonder due a limited observation and nothing more.

Alex