From: Richard Wordingham
Message: 24461
Date: 2003-07-13
----- Original Message -----
From: "alex" <alxmoeller@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Enclosed Places (was: The unexplained link between
Greek/Latin and Tamil)
> Piotr Gasiorowski wrote:
> > 12-07-03 23:44, alex wrote:
> >> If there is in Slavic the meaning "fence" then it can be a loan
> >> from Slavic. If not, then it is not.
Zero-grade forms seem to imply such a sense. Unfortunately, my German
dictionary's not good enough for me to fuly understand Pokorny's statement,
"tiefstuf. slav. z^ürdü in aksl. z^rüdü `Holz', russ. z^erdü `lange, du"nne
Stange', poln. z`erdz/, sloven. z^r^d `Wiesbaum'". Baltic does have a fence
word, "lit. [...] gardìs f. `Gatter, Gitter'", meaning open fencework as in
railings or a trellis.
> > Wrong (see above), also because there might have been a specialisation
> > of meaning in _Slavic_ after the word had been borrowed into Albanian
> > and Romanian. (The meaning of Germanic *gardaz was also fairly
> > general, but has become narrowed down in Modern English <yard>).
>
> Hard. In both languages the word specialised itself in the same way.
Well, for comparison there's always Old English _tu:n_ 'enclosure, garden,
yard; building(s) on a piece of enclosed land, farmstead; cluster of
buildings or houses', from which we get English 'town' and the common suffix
'-ton' in English place names. Cognate with that, we have Dutch _tuin_
'garden', German _Zaun_ 'fence, hedge', OIr du:n, Welsh din 'fort, castle,
fortified place', seen in Celtic place names such as London, Lyons and the
alternative name, Dunedin, of Edinburgh.
>
> >
> >> Do you have in Slavic the word
> >> "gardU"= fence? Not simmilars like " umgezeunte platz, stadt, usw
> >> usw. Simply, fence. Is it?
> >
> > The existence of the verb *gorditi 'enclose, protect with a fence',
> > and of derivatives like *ob-gordU 'garden' (which have nothing to do
> > with towns but much to do with fences) makes early Slavic *gordU
> > 'fence, palisade' at least a well-supported possibility.
> >
> > Piotr
>
> With other words, you try to defence your assumtion on probabilties,
> your right, of course:-)
> The existence of the verb "gorditi" does not imply automaticaly a fence
> but just a protection, Absperrung, wich Absperrung is not a fence, but
> can be of several kind.Both languages have too the verb and some more
> derivatives and in so far I am informed they are as follow:
>
> Alb:
> gardh, gardhec, gardhim, gardhiqe, gardhishe, the verb "gardon",
> As a loan from South Slavic there is "gradinë"= garten
>
> Rom:
> gard, gãrduT, gãrduleT; Now, there are the words which present a
> methathesis:
> ingrãdi(umzäunen), grãdiS, grãdiSte, a lot of toponyms which are called
> "GrãdiSte" see Alb. "Zgërdish"
>
> For Slavic we have to remember the Sout Slavic "grad"(city), "gradina"
> but the Russian "o-grada" too and the Rom. "ograda" too.
> Which is in fact the Slavic word? The one with metathesis or the another
> one?
That point was dealt with long ago, at great length.
Richard.