Re: [tied] substratum ( it was Re: Creole Romance?)

Miguel Carrasquer wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:53:08 +0200, alex <alxmoeller@...>
> wrote:
>
>> Is this substratum somehow related in Romance or there is no
>> connection between substratum of a Romance with substratum of
>> another romance? Clar text, are there words from French substratum
>> which are to find in the substratum of Spanish or Rom. for example?
>
> Not likely. The substrate of French is Gaulish. The substrate of
> Spanish is part Celtic, part Iberian, part Basque. The substrate of
> Romanian is Albanian.

1)there is an amount of words from Rom. substratum which are not to find
in Albanian.
2)one example here: the word, "mare"= great is considered to belong to
substratum. In Albanian the word is "madh", in OF was "mare" and you
will explain it trough celtic I suppose.It is said the word for horse
was in celtic "caballus" , the word in Alb. & Rom. are "kalë" and "cal"<
Lat. "caballus". But the word marshal from French is a compound of mare
+ chal and not mare+cheval for instance.

>
> The only candidate could be Celtic, dialects of which were spoken in
> Northern France, and in Iberia, and (marginally) in the Balkans.

Thus you will see the common words in substr. of French and Rom. as
Celtic relicts I guess.

> Other than the Celtic expansions (which were relatively recent as
> well), the Mediterranean before the Roman Empire was culturally,
> ethnically and linguistically scattered (as were indeed most parts of
> the part until recently).

Tthat is a suspposition.

> In Iberia there were Iberians,
> Tartessians, Lusitanians, Celts, Phoenicians and Greeks.

You forget to meantion for Iberia the followings:
Albocenses, Barbares, Ambirodaces, Ablaidaces, Arevaces, Argeles,
Aurienses, Decianes, Gruienses, Ilergetes, Letani,Vloques etc. Some of
these tribes are to find in Dacia too and other tribes seems to have
been called after the place they came, see Decianes, Ablai-daces,
Ambiro-daces, Ile-getes but some ligurian tribes too
The second one should be that the Iberians susstained they are originary
from the region of Thessalia, see Tacitus, Annal. lib. VI 34
"Nam Iberi Albanique saltuosos locos incolentes, duritiae patientiaeque
magis insuevere.Feruntque Thessalis ortos."

> In Gaul
> there were Gauls, Basque-Aquitanians, Ligurians and Greeks.

As well as Dacii, Deciates, Volcae, Ligurians too

> In the Balkans, there were Illyrians (which may represent
> several independent linguistic groups), Thracians, Dacians,
> Macedonians, Paeonians, Celts, Pelasgians, Lemnians, Minoans,
> Phoenicians and Greeks. The Phonicians and Greeks, of course, also
> represent a fairly recent maritime expansion.

I showed in a previos mail some Dacian tribes . It ought to mention in
the theritory of Old Thrace are mentioned the ligurians too.

Just from toponyms, hydronims and tribal name, this scattered people
appear to be more related to each other.