Re: [tied] Elbow, forearm

In Albanian, the cognat of this word is bërryl < *bher- + hu:ln,
with diphthongation of long u: > ui > y and /ll/>/l/ in intervocalic
position, due to the assimilation of cluster /-ln-/ > /ll/. It is
present also in kërryl 'turn of bow' < kër- + hu:ln-,
kërryle 'bended stick', etc.
I think that Trukish <el> 'hand', and Persina <arshin> 'elbow'
testifies for common word in (Pre-)Proto-Indo-European.

Konushevci
************

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski
<piotr.gasiorowski@...> wrote:

> 23-06-03 01:58, Richard Wordingham wrote:
>
> > I gather that 'ablaut now holds few
> > secrets'. How do the various words
> > for elbow, forearm, e.g. English
> > 'ell', Latin 'ulna', Greek
> > 'o:lene:', 'o:le:r' and 'o:llon' all
> > relate? I've seen the
> > Proto-Germanic form cited as
> > *alina:; is this an alternative
> > notation for *alino:?
>
> Yes, its OED-ese for *alino:. Lat. ulna < *olVna: (with syncope,

hence

> no assimilation of -ln- > -ll-), whereas Celtic forms (Ir.

uileann, Wel.

> elin, etc.) point to *oli:na:, I think. So, in that group of

languages,

> only the suffix shows ablaut. Goth. aleina 'cubit' is treated as a
> scribal mistake (for expected *alina) by the OED, but it could be
> anything else, from a Gaulish loan to a remodelled variant of the
> inherited form. I think the most parsimonious analysis for all of

the

> above is *ole:n-/*olen- with feminine *-a: added to an originally

nasal

> stem.
>
> Baltic and Slavic have short-vowelled *alk-/*elk- (the latter

perhaps

> secondary) plus various suffixes (e.g. PSl. *olkUtI) in

their 'elbow'

> words, but Baltic also shows a puzzling long-vowel set, cf. Latv.
> elkonis 'elbow' but olekts 'ell', Lith. uolekti`s (< *o:lek-t-).

If, as

> usually assumed, they are related to <ulna> & co., the *-k-
> (diminutive?) must have replaced the original stem formant already

in

> Proto-Balto-Slavic, but don't ask me how and why it happened. I

doubt

> very much if it makes sense to assign Indo-Iranian *aratn- (no
> Brugmannian length in the fist syllable, which means *e rather

than *o)

> to the same etymon, pace Pokorny.
>
> Greek shows a long vowel consistently in <o:le:n>, <o:lene:> and
> <o:llon> (< *o:ln-o-), forms that otherwise look parallel to the

Italic,

> Celtic and Germanic ones. The whole thing is difficult to analyse,
> though not unprecedented. It resembles the variation we find in

Gmc.

> naman- vs. Lat. no:men, Gk. ono:ma. Perhaps there was an original
> paradigm with an underlying long vowel, e.g. nom.sg. *h3ó:ln.,

oblique

> *h3olén-, secondary forms *h3olé:n ~ *h3o:lé:n (oblique *h3o(:)l-

en-).

> Jens, Miguel, Glen or anyone whose opinions about pre-PIE are more
> confident than mine will perhaps see one of their patterns here.