--- g <
george.st@...> wrote:
>
> >>(oguz name would be in Latin Gesta Oguzorum).
>
> BTW: I meant this not as a verbatim translation.
>
> >(GK)Oguz Khan himself is apparently a "composite"
> figure, with
> >elements of Attila and other great royal figures.
>
> (GS)Absolutely.
>
> >(GK)Which version of the Oguzname did you cite?
>
> (GS)I don't know, since I don't have that article
> myself.
> I only jotted down that quotation about 15 years
> ago;
> it was included in some other article by some other
> historian. So, the answer could be given only by
> the author himself, Mehmet Ali Ekrem. Here again
> the caption "O mentiune inedita despre rom�nii din
> sec. al IX-lea in 'Oguzname', cea mai veche cronica
> turca" [roughly: A little known reference to
> Romanians
> of the 9th c. in Oguzname, the oldest Turkish
> chronicle];
> published in the review SCIVA, 31, no. 2, in 1980.
>
> >(GK)Frankly there is no way of proving that the
> reference
> >to "Ulak" is much older than the 14th c.
>
> (GS)There are at least several Ulaq/Ulak references
> within the frame of much earlier events (concerning
> both Turkic and Tatar-Mongolian impacts).
*****GK: Quite. What I meant is that there is no way
of proving that all these references were not composed
as early 14th c. afterthoughts about much earlier
events, and do not necessarily rank as proof of actual
contacts in these earlier times (though they might:
for instance I don't think such contacts were
implausible in "Tatar-Mongolian" times which in
Eastern Europe begin ca. 1223).******
(GS) Polovtsies played a role not only in the
> history
> of the Rus principalities. :)
*****GK: You are absolutely right, George. They were
active (and left traces )in many areas. Khan Kotyan,
for instance, was a well known figure on the borders
of Galicia and Kiovia before his withdrawal across the
mountains. Cumans and Pechenegs (as well as other
Turkis) also settled on the territory of contemporary
Ukraine and blended in with the locals. Early in the
20th c. there was even a pamphlet brought out by a
Polish chauvinist (we all have such, Ukrainians not
excluded, so this is just a comment not a general
indictment) called F. Rawita-Gawronski, entitled "Un
danger pour l'Europe", which argued that Ukrainians
were simply Slavicized Pechenegs and Cumans, and
should not be allowed to wreak havoc in the civilized
West (:=))).
Citing your excerpt from the Oguznahme again:
"(As QIptchaq (the personification of the Cumans) grew
big
and migthty, the countries Urus, Ulak, Magar and
Bashqurd
became enemies and refused allegiance. Then
[Oguz-khan]
offered KIpchaK numerous people and n�ker [soldiers]
and
ordered him he should go in the Don and Volga areas
and
to make them obey.)"
It is actually very tempting to see this as referring
to the arrival of the Tatar-Mongols in Eastern Europe.
Here "Oguz Khan" would stand for the Grand Khan of
Qaraqorum, "Qiptchaq" for what subsequently became the
Golden Horde with its capital at Sarai, "Urus" for the
Rus' states, "Magar" for Hungary (occupied by Batu for
a few years), "Bashqurd" for territories east of the
Volga, and "Ulak" for an early Vlach presence north of
the Danube. Things don't have to fit precisely in
epics, but the thing hangs together well enough.
Still, it's obviously a take it or leave it
interpretation.******
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