From: fortuna11111
Message: 23109
Date: 2003-06-12
>Outlook(TM).
> --- fortuna11111 <fortuna11111@...> wrote:
> > > When
> > > > did the wars
> > > > you mean take place? At the time of Boris?
> > >
> > > GK: Yes. They were prompted by the resistance
> > of
> > > a majority of the Proto-Bulgar aristocracy to the
> > > imposition of Christianity. The last "blow" was
> > also
> > > delivered by Boris, coming out of retirement in
> > 893 to
> > > eliminate a neo-Pagan threat supported by his son
> > > Vladimir. I'm surprised you don't know your own
> > > history, Eva...
> >
> > (Eva)There are other theories on that as well.
>
> *****GK: Such as?*****
>
> In order
> > to be able to
> > tell you that there are other theories, supposedly,
> > I know about
> > the first ones as well, so I don't know what you are
> > assuming.
>
> *****GK: That sounds like evasive mumbo-jumbo to me,
> Eva.****
>
> I
> > have read about Boris killing a significant part of
> > the aristocracy
> > and blinding his own son. Since there is so much
> > debate in my
> > country lately on the subject, I refrain from taking
> > a stance on the
> > old version or the new ones as being the last
> > possible.
>
> *****GK: What are these new versions? *****
>
> Yet any
> > theories about a protobulgar "implosion" go very far
> > from what I
> > have read in history books.
>
> *****GK: Pretty standard stuff it seems to me. You
> don't have to be a genius to realize that when a
> population constantly mentioned for a couple of
> centuries suddenly disappears from the sources [and
> here the key is the abandonment of the Bulgar-Slav
> contrast] something rather important has happened.****
>
> This is already further
> > interpretation
> > on your part and I can't help but naming it exactly
> > so - an
> > interpretation, accroding to its wording.
>
> *****GK: What are the alternative interpretations? And
> by that I don't mean sophomoric uneducated "opinion",
> but something based on the sources and logically
> developed.*****
> >
> > >
> > > Btw, he
> > > > has never
> > > > been presented negatively by Bulgarian
> > historians.
> > >
> > > GK: Why should he? He gave Bulgaria to the
> > Slavs
> > > (:=)))
> >
> > Bulgaria is Bulgaria, we don't look at it as being
> > given to anyone,
> > even when we speak of our various roots. Your logic
> > sounds a
> > bit weird to me.
>
> *****GK: My dear Eva, you have a very weird sense of
> weirdness (:=)) Consider the fact that the pristine
> Bulgar state was ruled by a Proto-Bulgar aristocracy,
> with the majority Slavs in a subordinate position. In
> the latter part of the 9th century, thanks largely to
> the decisions and activities of Boris, the Slavs
> became the predominant ruling force of the state, and
> the Proto-Bulgars were phased out at the top (not
> comprehensively, things like that are never
> comprehensive) but very much as to numbers and
> influence. There is nothing odd whatsoever about
> describing this process in the manner I did. What is
> your alternative "interpretation"?*****
> >
> > >
> > > > I am really
> > > > amused to read all this. So the following
> > Golden
> > > > Age must have
> > > > been the death of the Bulgars?
> > >
> > > GK: Of the Proto-Bulgars, not of the Bulgars
> > (by
> > > then the label meant the Slavic speakers).
> >
> > It is not quite clear what was meant with what.
> > This is simply
> > interpretation and I do not see a reason to keep
> > bickering on the
> > subject.
>
> *****GK: More meaningless mumbo-jumbo, Eva. Either you
> have something to say in response or you don't.*****
> >
> > > > I hear the term Cyrillomethodianism for the
> > first
> > > > time. Sounds
> > > > like all other -isms. Do you describe this as a
> > > > movement of a
> > > > sort?
> > >
> > > GK: There is a vast literature on this, Eva.
> > Sts.
> > > Constantine/Cyril and St. Methodius and their
> > > disciples.
> >
> > You are simply ridiculous, George. The 24th of May
> > is one of the
> > biggest holidays in Bulgaria - the day of the
> > Slavonic alphabet. I
> > was christened on that day. You are trying to tell
> > me I have not
> > heard of Cyrill and Methodius?
>
> *****GK: I am not trying to tell you anything. If you
> don't wish to be undervalued or misunderstood, don't
> make ambiguous or disingenuous comments.*****
> >
> > I was just discussing the funny terms you use for
> > them and their
> > mission. It sounds almost like communism to me and
> > not
> > applicable to the events in question (the creation
> > of the alphabet,
> > the travelling of the brothers, their sessions in
> > the Vatican, their
> > mission in Moravia, etc.). Most of all, it sounds
> > like the words of
> > a Someone who wrote on the subject and nothing more.
> > Like
> > one possible interpretation. So I asked you what
> > you mean in
> > choosing such big words. A political party? :-)
>
> ******GK: Putting this claptrap aside, you might have
> developed the following, which is the only relevant
> part of your yakety yak on the issue:
> >
> > > > There are, actually findings of carved crosses
> > with
> > > > proto-Bulgarian words. I guess there were such
> > > > attempts, but
> > > > not much evidence is found on them, so they must
> > > > have been a
> > > > few.
> > >
> > > GK: One wonders what would have happened in
> > > Bulgaria if the Proto-Bulgars had accepted
> > > Christianity, say, in the early 9th c., under
> > Krum.
> >
> > In the 9th century under Krum? Look it up, George,
> > see when
> > Krum ruled Bulgaria.
>
> *****GK: I won't pick up on this since you corrected
> yourself in a separate post.*****
> >
> > > Perhaps there might have been some Byzantine
> > > Constantine who would have developed an alphabet
> > for
> > > them plus a liturgy plus the lot. The most
> > optimistic
> > > scenario would have had the modern Bulgarians
> > speaking
> > > a Turkic dialect (:=))))
> >
> > The whole differentiation between Slav and Bulgar is
> > irrelevant to
> > us, Bulgarians. It is relevant only to the extent
> > that it helps us
> > trace our roots and learn more about our traditions.
> > It is not an
> > either-or thinking.
> >
> > Which you probably fail to understand.
>
> *****GK: My interest here is strictly historical. I
> have, naturally, no issue of "roots" to learn and
> discover. But when someone with that kind of an agenda
> comes up with a categorical statement (the
> Proto-Bulgars were Iranic-speaking, end of discussion)
> which runs so contrary to established science, I am
> obviously intrigued and would like substantiation. So
> far you've given us nothing. Not even an
> "interpretation" as distinct from a pertinacious and
> quite amateurish "opinion".******
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to
> http://calendar.yahoo.com