Re: "vatër" vs "vatra"; "veter-" vs "batran"

From: gs001ns@...
Message: 22744
Date: 2003-06-06

>Romanian has not kept the Latin sufix "-anus".

It has... român, moldovan, moro$an, mure$an, some$an, abrudan, o$an,
bãnãtzan, clujan, bârsan, fãgãra$an, sibian, buzoian, cri$an, orãdan,
arãdan, motzogan, rusan, nemtzan, sârban; ciocârlan, $oldan, mârlan,
mocofan, bãdãran, barosan, dãrãban (= dorobantz), cordovan, Bãrãgan,
Drãgan, Beligan, Modrogan, Luncan, Luican, Cistelecan, Fãrcã$an, Negrean;
ciolan, ciocan; barosan etc. And last but not least the recent semi-argotic
friptan and mertzan (the former for fripturã = grilled meat, the latter
= ... Mercedes Benz).

OTOT, in my humblest opinion, the diphtongized suffix "-ean" is virtually
the same thing: moldovean, oltean, ardelean, vrancean, muscelean,
tarnavean, tismanean, brailean, barladean, abrudean, muresean,
somesean, cri$ean, orãdean, arãdean, bârsean, fãgãrã$ean, nemtzean,
ungurean; negrean, giule$tean.

(NB: most of the kind of the above can at the same time be second
names, many of them both "-an(u)" and "-ean(u)", e.g. Farca$an(u),
Farca$ean(u), Abrudan, Abrudean, Moldovan(u), Moldovean(u),
Muresean(u), Muresian(u) [cf. Andrei Muresianu, "Desteapta-te,
Române!"], Muresan(u)

>The association with veteranus= ex-soldier with "veetr-" seems to be
>made missing something better.

A veteranus soldier was in former times as is today nothing else
but an... old soldier: due to his age and/or number of years on duty,
this veteran soldier is entitled to leave the army and get something
like retirement pay. What the heck should be so special in this?
So, a certain kind of vetus, namely a veteranus, prompted some
generations of cives romani to use this specialized word in other
contexts as well whenever they wished to say "old." Hence you've
got in Romanian two of a kind: (a) bãtrân,-i, bãtrânã,-e & (b) vechi,-,
veche,-i. (OTOH, whenever referring to an old, decrepit, man, you
either use batrân, or mo$ and a third word (also presumably from
the "substrate") ghiuj (with its regional variant ghijgãrãu). The latter
have been quite low in frequency, so that native speakers tend to
the pleonastic construction "ghiuj bãtrân," as though there were
"ghiuj tânãr" [of course there ain't].)

>There is no bit truth in "mãrar" derive from "mãr"

This assertion based on what?

>The second thought is the expresions which are to find in Albanian and
>Romanian regarding "let one come back to vatre".

An important aspect, IMHO too. But I'd ask myself: how old might be
this in both languages? Can it be 1500 years old? Or rather 2 centuries?
What if it is a recent translation from a third language?

>The tirth one is that veteranus is a late apparition in Latin. Piotr can
>say what he wants, but Rome has had soldiers long time before this word
>appeared and there has been no "veteranus" known.

So what? People forever invent new words. In this, they make use of
the old lexical stuff by modifying phonetics and/or semantics.

>For this I ask myself if the "apparition" of this word can be connected
>with the time as the Romans entered the Balkans?

Why are you so mesmerized by the first "seconds," namely only by the
*inception* of the process? The time span from this inception until a
time when the proto-SouthEast-European Romance idiom is supposed
to have been so remote from Vulgar Latin that the terms proto-Romanian
and proto-Dalmatian are justified comprised at least 5 (five) centuries.
IMHO plenty of time for various and numerous linguistic occurrences
pertaining to... bella Italia, that 1500-2000 years later puzzle and baffle
you. :)

>Now to Rom. "bãtrân". Have you took a look at Albanian?

This is a further leitmotiv that you (and not only you, but most of the
mainstream and the alternative analysts) nearly slavishly take into
consideration as some sort of an... ancestor. But are the conclusions
convincing that Albanian is either MI (modified Illyrian) or MDM (modi-
fied Daco-Moesian)?

>If not, let us see some words:
>vjetak= einjärig ( looks like vãtui from meaning, doesn't it?)
>vjetër = old
>vjetërim= Old age, (Alter, Veralten, Abnutzung, Verschleiß)
>vjetëron= to grow old ( veralten lassen, alt machen)

What of this? What if these words are also derivations of the Latin
vet-er- family, and with the diphtongation of the first e in a way
that's typical of Slavic languages (I dunno, perhaps of other
Satem ones as well)?

>I would like to know if the vjetër is a metathesis form of vjetrë here
>or not. I ask it because beside "vatër" in Albanian there is "vatrë"
>too. Maybe Abdullah will tell us here something more about the

A pratfall, my dear Alex, will be warranted only when Abdullah
will present to you on a silver platter the proof that vietër is the
"child" of vatrë (this seems to me absurd), and that vjetër has
never performed... foreign trade, across the Adriatic, with the
three Graces: vetus, veteris, veteranus.

>alex

George

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