Re: [tied] Illyrian as satem

Dear Abdullah,

I have the German version of Cimochowski's article (_Studia Albanica_ X/1:
137-153) in my home library. I've read it more than once, like many other
things he wrote. Let me assure you first that I have the deepest respect for
his work, and it may please you to know that Cimochowski for several years
held the Chair of General Linguistics at the very department of Poznan
University where I work (that was before my time, of course). On my part,
I'm delighted to learn it first-hand that his work is so much appreciated in
Albania.

As you certainly realise, the evidence discussed by Cimochowski is actually
highly mixed. Much of the data you cite in your own posting is either
ambiguous or dificult for the proponents of Satemised Illyrian. <k> and <s>,
or <g> and <z> seem to appear just about as frequently as alleged reflexes
of *k^ and *g^(H). When we combine that with the fact that the most of the
Illyrian etymologies are uncertain, not to say arbitrary, the diagnostic
value of those reflexes is close to nil.

Cimochowski actually believed that Albanian represented a mixture of
Illyrian and "Thracian" elements, and that all those languages stood outside
the Satem/Centum classification in the sense that the Satem shift affected
them inconsistently. I don't accept this classification for other reasons,
but unlike Cimochowski I do not believe in "partly Satem" languages.
Albanian is certainly nothing of the kind. As for Illyrian, if one says that
both <asamon> and <akoumigkon> (/akuminkon/) reflect PIE *h2ak^mo:n, my
opinion is that at least one of these guesses must be wrong.

We know virtually nothing about Illyrian morphology. Even if placenames like
Birziminio, Burzumon, etc., are drived rom *bHr.g^H-, we can't identify the
suffixes or rule out the possibility that some suffixal material is
responsible for the apparent palatalisation (e.g. *bHr.g^H-jo- > *burzo-, or
something of the kind: after all, English <birch> has a palatal affricate as
a reflex of *g^H-, though English is obviouosly not a Satem language).

The interpretation of Illyrian evidence as supporting its Satem status is
irreconcilable with the hypothesis that Illyrian is the ancestor of
Albanian. For example, is the Hesychian gloss <sarsai : hamaksai> is taken
to prove that *k^ors- (cf. Lat. currus 'chariot') > Ill. sars, that's
unfortunately different from the developments reconstructed for Albanian.
For one thing, the Albanian reflexes of *k^ and *s have never fallen
together, wheras there's no Illyrian material known to me showing their
different treatment. *k^ first became an affricate before developing into
Mod.Alb. th. Where can we see this affricate in Illyrian?

There are other problems that are rarely if ever addressed by proponents of
the Illyrian hypothesis. For example, the placename Ulcinium/Oulkinion
(modern Ulqini) is routinely etymologised as based on *wl.kWos 'wolf', with
the same treatment of *wl.- as in Alb. ujk ~ ulk. This is supposed to prove
that Ulqini is an inherited derivative of a native Albanian word. But if it
were, PIE *kW would have been palatalised already in pre-Albanian, giving
PAlb. *c^ and ultimately modern /s/. It follows that either Ulcinium had
nothing to do in wolves or Ulquini is a borrowed name (or both).

Piotr

----- Original Message -----
From: Abdullah Konushevci
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 5:55 PM
Subject: [tied] Illyrian as satem


Examples of satem character of Illyrian
(From WACLAW CIMOCHOWSKI, Linguistic Position of Balkan Illyrian in
IE Languages)
1. Examples for reflection with spirants of *k'/h/-

A. Geographic names
1. Asamon, Asamum, Asamo, station in the north of Epidaurum, dated in
1272 in one document as Lapada 2. As-naus ("mountain of rocks). 3.
Ass-er-ia, town in Dalmatia. 4. As-in-ione, seashore town in Liburnia
and the name of the tribe Azin-ates (like Flan-ona, Flan-ates). `As-
ine, town in Argolis, founded by Druopoi, near of today's Petrobuni.
As-amus, river name (Moesia Superior), today Osma and the castle An-
as-amus near the mentioned rive. All names have as- < *ak' `sharp'
(cf. Old Indic asma `rock, stone', lit. asmus `edge, blade'(.). Hezik
gloss sar sai amaksai was treated as Illyrian and is compare with
lat. curro, carrus + krs-, lit. karsiu `to hurry'.

B. Anthroponyms
1. Dasimus, Dasumiu, Daksima M. Schmidt had compared with lat.
Decimus (.). 2. Siras was explained correctly by Ribezzo from +sirios
and was compared with gr. Kirros `yellow to the red' and with Old
Bulgarian serb `gry'.
On the basis of presented examples we could conclude that PIE k in
Illyrian had became some kind of spirant, that in writing form was
noticed as s, ss, or z.

II. Examples for reflection of PIE k' through velar k

A. Geographic names
1. Candavia, Candaviae montes, mountain zone between the Lychnides
lake and rivers Devoll and Shkumbin, was connected usually with
Kandaos, Kandaon, Kunagies, has in the first part of compound the
element can- + kuon, compare Oind. Sva sun - `dog', but let.
kuna `bitch' and the name of the man Candallo. 2. Kerketion oros,
mountain in the border between Thesalia and Epirus, today Belesika-
Planina and Kerkine (Thuc. 2,98) 3. Islands Kerkura and Korkura,
today Korphus and Korcula. 4. Krokoras, river name, today Gurk,
belong here, because H. Krahe had correctly connected these with Ol.
Indic sarkara `gravel, grit'.(.) 5. Clausal (liv. 44,31) river near
the Shkodra with the root *k'leu-, gr. khluzo `to rinse'. 6.
Cornacum, station in the road of the Danub, today Sotin, Krahe had
connected with Oindic srngan `horn'. 7. Trikornion was also connected
with srngam, but may be Celtic. 8. Acumincum, Akuomigikon (Ptol.
2.15), today Slankamen, if is Illyrian, will be putted to lit.
akmuo `ston'. Peucetti, peuketioi, one Liburnian tribe, which name is
connected with the name of the tree peuke `fir', Old Prusian peuse.
Lit. pusis `id.'.

B. Anthroponyms
1. Acra-banus, Acra-banis probabely Illyrian, first part of which is
placed together with lit. astrus, Old Bulg. ost `sharp' (cf. akorono
to ariston kai kallistin (Etym. Mag.) , also 2. Akrisios and 3.
Abalagros, Macedonian name of men. 4. Candalio, once attested, is
possible to not be Illyrian, but even if it be, it goes with
Candavia, about which we talk above. 5. Cleves and Cleus, also
Clevatus-a. 6. Ves-cleves, explained by W. Tomaschek uesu-kleus: Old
Indic vasu-sravah `with good name', have all the element clev-, to
which corresponds also in other IE satem languages as beginning
phonem a velar k, cf. lit. klausyti `to hear'; Alb. quej, quaj `to
name' (<klu-), also in Mesapic kloahi zis. 7. Epi-cadus, a very
spreaded name in Illyria. Was connected by Pedersen with Gr.
kekadmenos, Old Indic sasadana `distinguished, victorious'.
All presented names here was represented by PIE k' through velar k in
the position before -r ore -l, respectivly after u. Roots elements of
those names in some IE satem languages have also velar phonems near
to spirants.

III. Examples of the reflection with spirants of PIE g/h/
A. Geographic names
1. Adzizio (Tab. Peut.), station in Hercegovina and Zidian, Zizis
(Rav. 3.8). Exept these Assidium was placed by A. Meyer to the PIE
name of the goat, for example got. Gaits `goat', lat. haedhis `goat-
kid' (.). Briziminio, Burzumon, Berzumno (It. Ant., 339, 12; Rav. 4,
16; Tab. Peut.), today Podgorica was connected by F. Ribezzo and A.
Meyer with br.hant- `strong', br.hati `height' <*berg'h-.whence the
name of the castle in Dardania.
***
Now, only examples, without further explanations: 3. Berzana. 4.
Barzanites. 5. Bulsinus mons 6. daksa thalassa. 7. Ar dazanos. 8.
Deksaroi, Doksaroi, tribe name. 9. Dessaretea, Dassaretai,
Dassarenoi, etc.

Konushevci