Re: [tied] Vladimir

--- Piotr Gasiorowski <piotr.gasiorowski@...>
wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "george knysh" <gknysh@...>
> To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 8:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [tied] Vladimir
>
>
> > GK: Bear with me. I'm not too clear on this
> process. The contention is that the proto form was
> *vol- or *gor- or *mel-. Around 800 there would have
> been a metathetic event in West and South Slavic,
> and a "fuller voicing" in East Slavic? (except for
> Pskovian as to milk et sim.) Why is this considered
> a better solution than the view that the proto form
> was *vl- *gr- and *ml- which was subsequently "full
> voiced" only in East Slavic?

******GK: Thanks for what follows. I'll save it for
further reference.******

>
> (1) The old forms are directly attested in the
> earliest documented Slavic names (Dargomir-, etc.),

*****GK: Anything beside the (possibly misspelled)
Bulgarian DARGAMEROS? We have a Prince DOROGOROG of
the later 9th c. mentioned in the Cividale Gospel. He
is assumed to have come on his pilgrimage from the
Carpathians.******

> and in the oldest Slavic loans e.g. into Romanian
> and Albanian.

******GK: How can these be securely dated? Perhaps
some examples would help.*****

>
> (2) Unmetathesised forms like <gard> survive
> marginally in some dialects, e.g. in Kashubian.

******GK: I am reminded of the Polabian STARGARD.
Could this be indicative of a direct Baltic Norse
influence?*****

>
> (3) The assumed Proto-Slavic forms correspond to
> cognate words in Baltic and elsewhere, e.g. Lith.
> b�rz^as, Germanic *berkjo: vs. Russian bereza, Pol.
> brzoza, etc. (PSl. *berza reconciles them).

******GK: I can see that this is arguable. Would it
also be arguable that a *b'rza (where ' is a very weak
vowel) would also do the trick? Strengthened in some
languages, and further weakened in others?*****

>
> (4) Early loans into Slavic show the same change,
> e.g. *walx- > volox/vlox/vlax (to cite Alex's
> favourite word), or Alb- > Laba, among many others.

******GK: *walx- would thus have existed as a "Slavic"
term for some time ( with the accompanying *wolx
?)before the metathesis in So/West Sl and
"lengthening" in EaSl ? Yet as a "borrowed" word, it
need not be compared to the suggested *gr- *ml- and
*vl- forms.******

>
> (5) Vowelless syllables with syllabic *[l.], *[r.]
> also existed but developed differently in Slavic.
> Cf. PIE *wl.kWos > Russ. volk, Polish wilk, Czech
> vlk, OCS vlUkU, SCr. vuk.

******GK: I'm not sure this indicates anything one way
or another.******

>
> Piotr
>
>
>
>

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