From: tgpedersen
Message: 20132
Date: 2003-03-21
>At snorri's time, yes.
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > > GK: If you stick to your source, you will
> > note
> > > that "Odin and company" first travelled from
> > "Asgard"
> > > WEST to "Gardariki". Gardariki, in Snorri's time
> > was
> > > Kyivan Rus' and its associates ("the land of
> > > strongholds"), including the important (for the
> > Old
> > > Norse) stronghold of Holmgard (Novgorod).
> > Your interpretation of Snorri implies he had no
> > historical knowledge
> > at all.
>
> *****GK: Gardariki (in the East) meant exactly what I
> said it meant. There is no reason to suppose that
> Snorri did not know that this is what it meant.*****
> >
> > >Here weYes, but question was whether the terminology had changed since the
> > > should read WEST as "north and west", north along
> > the
> > > Volga then west eventually reaching the Holmgard
> > area.
>
> >(T) Why? Obviously west, then south won't take you
> from
> > Tanaquisl to
> > Saxland. Something's got to give,right. Why not
> > correct the 'south'
> > direction instead (Snorri perhaps thought of
> > Holmgard here?)?
>
> ******GK: Just how far north did "Asaland" extend in
> Snorri's view? There is nothing to prevent one from
> imagining that although "east" of the Don it might
> have included the basin of the Volga all the way to
> Bolgar. And so, starting from the northern boundary of
> "Asaland" you go WEST into "Gardariki", still along
> the Volga (which turns West here BTW), and finally you
> reach the areas where Holmgard (Novgorod) later stood.
> From here, of course, if you want to reach Saxland
> (North Germany) you will have to travel in a
> SOUTHwestern direction. There is no need to "correct"
> anything. Snorri was quite familiar with Viking
> routes.******
> >In any case, I wouldn't need any Bastarneans in Thuringia to make a
> > > This route, well known to the Norse, already
> > existed
> > > at the time of Jordanes.==
> >(T) That's not the direct path from Southern
> > Scandinavia.
>
> ******GK: There are a number of paths eastward. That's
> not the issue. They're all northern. And we're not
> talking about paths from Southern Scandinavia but
> Odin's imaginary trek from Asgard to Saxland via
> Gardariki.******
> >
> >
> > >Afterwards, "Odin and
> > > company" went SOUTH to Saxland. This means (in
> > order
> > > to make any geographical sense at all) that they
> > > travelled from the area of Novgorod to northern
> > > Germany (via the Baltic).
> >(T) Assuming (as you, and Snorri? do) that Gardariki
> was
> > Holmgard.
>
> ******GK: There is no need to assume anything.
> Holmgard (Novgorod) was not only Gardariki but one of
> its most important centers. However, if you wish, one
> can also imagine a WESTWARD trek to Polotsk (also in
> Gardariki) and then SOUTHwestward to Saxland (via
> Poland). Not as clearcut, but just possible within
> Snorri's imagined story. *******
> >
> onYes, there are many herrings in the Baltic.
> > > Snorri's geography the Bastarneans cannot be
> > involved
> > > in "Odin's trek". Pritsak thought (and this is
> > > possible) that Snorri was describing the route
> > from
> > > Khazaria to Scandinavia, with "Odin" representing
> > the
> > > impulse
> >(T) This is bizarre. An "impulse", not people
> > travelling?
>
> ******GK: Of course people travelling. Another one of
> the myriad little red herrings designed to draw
> attention away from the bizarre nature of your
> "theory".*****
> > >which resulted in the reform of the futhark.Embarassing, sorry. I should have looked it up.
> > > But even so, Snorri's account confuses many
> > things:
> > > Troy legends, Norse explorations along the Volga,
> > > Gothic lore perhaps. There is nothing "historical"
> > > about it. And your dating of it, plus everything
> > else
> > > you've advanced (esp. the Bastarneans) is naive
> > and
> > > ridiculous beyond belief. As for the Osi, they
> > were a
> > > Pannonian tribe, which paid tribute to the Iranian
> > > Iazyges.
> > (T)Source?
>
> ******GK: Oh for God's sake. Enough already! Tacitus,
> Germania ch. 43.******
> >With pleasure.
> > But cf Snorri's prologue:
> >
> > Ok þeir gefa eigi stað ferðinni, fyrr en þeir koma
> > norðr í þat land,
> > er nú er kallat Saxland
> >
> > "They didn't stop until they arrived north in the
> > land now called
> > Saxland".
>
> ******GK: What prologue would that be? And its
> context? That's not the Preface to the Heimskringla
> I've consulted. Enlighten me.******
> >