Re: [tied] Re: Germanic Scythians?

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
Thus a place where

> the Don branches.
> Thus in the delta (but I don't have a detailed map;
> are there
> branches upriver?).

*****GK: Tributaries. Consult any reliable map. As
mentioned, the Volga itself was occasionally
misperceived as such.*******

> > GK: If you stick to your source, you will
> note
> > that "Odin and company" first travelled from
> "Asgard"
> > WEST to "Gardariki". Gardariki, in Snorri's time
> was
> > Kyivan Rus' and its associates ("the land of
> > strongholds"), including the important (for the
> Old
> > Norse) stronghold of Holmgard (Novgorod).
> Your interpretation of Snorri implies he had no
> historical knowledge
> at all.

*****GK: Gardariki (in the East) meant exactly what I
said it meant. There is no reason to suppose that
Snorri did not know that this is what it meant.*****

>
> >Here we
> > should read WEST as "north and west", north along
> the
> > Volga then west eventually reaching the Holmgard
> area.

>(T) Why? Obviously west, then south won't take you

from

> Tanaquisl to
> Saxland. Something's got to give,right. Why not
> correct the 'south'
> direction instead (Snorri perhaps thought of
> Holmgard here?)?

******GK: Just how far north did "Asaland" extend in
Snorri's view? There is nothing to prevent one from
imagining that although "east" of the Don it might
have included the basin of the Volga all the way to
Bolgar. And so, starting from the northern boundary of
"Asaland" you go WEST into "Gardariki", still along
the Volga (which turns West here BTW), and finally you
reach the areas where Holmgard (Novgorod) later stood.
From here, of course, if you want to reach Saxland
(North Germany) you will have to travel in a
SOUTHwestern direction. There is no need to "correct"
anything. Snorri was quite familiar with Viking
routes.******

>
> > This route, well known to the Norse, already
> existed
> > at the time of Jordanes.==
>(T) That's not the direct path from Southern
> Scandinavia.

******GK: There are a number of paths eastward. That's
not the issue. They're all northern. And we're not
talking about paths from Southern Scandinavia but
Odin's imaginary trek from Asgard to Saxland via
Gardariki.******

>
>
> >Afterwards, "Odin and
> > company" went SOUTH to Saxland. This means (in
> order
> > to make any geographical sense at all) that they
> > travelled from the area of Novgorod to northern
> > Germany (via the Baltic).
>(T) Assuming (as you, and Snorri? do) that Gardariki

was

> Holmgard.

******GK: There is no need to assume anything.
Holmgard (Novgorod) was not only Gardariki but one of
its most important centers. However, if you wish, one
can also imagine a WESTWARD trek to Polotsk (also in
Gardariki) and then SOUTHwestward to Saxland (via
Poland). Not as clearcut, but just possible within
Snorri's imagined story. *******

>

on

> > Snorri's geography the Bastarneans cannot be
> involved
> > in "Odin's trek". Pritsak thought (and this is
> > possible) that Snorri was describing the route
> from
> > Khazaria to Scandinavia, with "Odin" representing
> the
> > impulse
>(T) This is bizarre. An "impulse", not people
> travelling?

******GK: Of course people travelling. Another one of
the myriad little red herrings designed to draw
attention away from the bizarre nature of your
"theory".*****

>
> >which resulted in the reform of the futhark.
> > But even so, Snorri's account confuses many
> things:
> > Troy legends, Norse explorations along the Volga,
> > Gothic lore perhaps. There is nothing "historical"
> > about it. And your dating of it, plus everything
> else
> > you've advanced (esp. the Bastarneans) is naive
> and
> > ridiculous beyond belief. As for the Osi, they
> were a
> > Pannonian tribe, which paid tribute to the Iranian
> > Iazyges.
> (T)Source?

******GK: Oh for God's sake. Enough already! Tacitus,
Germania ch. 43.******

>
> >But I suppose that hallucinations are at a
> > premium here.
> > >
>
>
> But cf Snorri's prologue:
>
> Ok �eir gefa eigi sta� fer�inni, fyrr en �eir koma
> nor�r � �at land,
> er n� er kallat Saxland
>
> "They didn't stop until they arrived north in the
> land now called
> Saxland".

******GK: What prologue would that be? And its
context? That's not the Preface to the Heimskringla
I've consulted. Enlighten me.******

>
> Torsten
>
>
>

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