Celts/Gauls

From: Michael J Smith
Message: 19634
Date: 2003-03-08

Hey, I've got some questions. I would love feedback on all this.

Diodorus Siculus said

"It is usefull now to point out a distinction unkown by most. Those
tribes that live inland from Massalia, as well as those around the Alps
and on the eastern side of the Pyrenes are called Celts. But those
tribes in the northern area near the ocean, those near the Hercynian
mountain (probably today in the Czech Republic), and those beyond as far
as Scythia (present-day Ukraine and South Russia), are called Galatae.
The Romans, however, group all these tribes together as Galatae."
(translated by John T. Koch).

My question is, what was the basis for this distinction by Diodorus,
was it a linguistic distinction at all or strictly geographical? And I
wonder why it was "unkown by most."
And I wonder if he has in mind the Celts being a branch of the larger
Galatae with merely a dialectal distinction as far as language is
concerned.

If so, how great of a difference in language could their have been
between the "Celts" and the "Galatae"? Or could this difference have
anything to do with one being Q-Celtic-speaking, the other being
P-Celtic-speaking? Perhaps that would explain why Q-Celtic is attested
in southern Gaul as well as Iberia.

Here's how I see this as a possibility- First of all, I believe that
the first Celts encountered by the Greeks were in Massalia, and the
tribe(s) they came into contact with was called the Celti/Celtici, which
would explain where they got the term from, and why it was later used of
all Gauls/Celts. Now, there was a tribe called the Celtici in southern
Iberia, and interestingly Herodotus mentions the Celts beyond the Pillars
of Hercules as well as near the mouth of the Danube and near the Pyrenes.
So, the Celts in Southern Iberia seem to possibly be the same as or a
branch of the Celti/Celticii in
Southern Gaul, and it seems that the Greeks got the name Celts from this
specific tribe, or maybe this was a confederacy of tribes.

Now since Q-Celtic was spoken in Iberia, these Celtici in Southern
Iberia, and therefore possibly those in Southern Gaul, could very well
have been Q-Celtic speakers. So, it is possible that the difference
between the southern "Celts" and northern "Galatae" could have been that
the Celti/Celtici were Q-Celtic speakers while the Galatae were P-Celtic
speakers.
Interestingly, Herodotus refers to the Celts as inhabiting the
area of the mouth of the Danube, the Pyrenes and beyond the Pillars of
Hercules, but doesn't indicate a more northerly setting than this. It
could be that the term Celti/Keltoi was a more specific term for this
tribe/tribes and later became a more general term for all the Celts and
Gauls.
If the Celti/Celtici were merely another tribe of Gauls not much
different from more northerly Gauls, then why did Herodotus mention Celts
as far south as "beyond the Pillars of Hercules in Iberia" but not any
more north than "the mouth of the Danube"?
Perhaps this is because the Celti/Celtici were seen by themselves and/or
others as distinct (but to what extent we don't know) from the more
northerly "Galatae."

And why else would classical authors inconveniently use two
completely different terms, Galatae/Galli and Keltoi/Celtae,
synonymously, unless they originally had different tribal/geographical
meanings, later becoming synonyous terms (maybe due to eventual
intermarriage with or absorbtion of the Celti/Celtici in Southern Gaul by
the "Gauls") ?
If this is not so, could Diodorus' be distinguishing between the
Belgae (the Galatae) and the Gauls/Celts? I think this is less of a
possibility.

Finally, Tacitus mentioned that the term Germani was the original
name of the Tungri before becoming a collective term for all the Germans.
Now, a tribe called the Germani were attested in Low Andulisia in the
3rd or 2nd century B.C. Could these have been the Tungri (the name
change to Tungri being only for the Tungri in Gaul/Germany) ?

Well, would love feedback- Michael


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