Help with ban_Banat

What today is know as the historical Banat was almost a perfect square of
28.526 km2 and had the following natural boundaries:
-at N the Mures/Maros/Mieresch River;
-at E the foothills of the Carpati Mountains/Transylvanian Alps;
-at S the Dunarea/Danube/Donau River;
-and at W the Tisa/Tisza/Theiss/Theiß River.

-1688-1699: Luigi Ferdinando Count de Marsigli use for the first time the
word "BANAT" [ie "Banatus Temesvariensis", "Banatus Temesiensis"] in its
modern acceptance.

In 1211/1222, we have already the term "ban(us)" for Transylvania and in
1230 the Banat of Severin was set-up [even if not with this name] in the
S/SE part of today Banat [and including some parts of W Oltenia and S
Transylvania].
In 1233 it is known already under the name of Banat of Severin. This Banat
of Severin was the creation of a medieval hungarian kingdom and will survive
up to 12.09.1658. .

"Before that Banat was always part of Hungary".

If we are talking about this "modern" [post 1716] Banat:
-1716-1778: Banat was direct ruled by the imperial administration from
Vienna [military administration 1718-1751; civil administration 1751-1778];
it is correct to say that Banat was an Habsburg House possession.
-1778-1848: Banat was incorporated to Hungary; the head of the Habsburg
House was also the king of Hungary.
-1848-27.12.1860: Banat [inside the Serbischen Wojwodina/Woewodschaft und
des Temescher Banats/Temeser Banates region] was ruled directly by the
imperial administration from Vienna;
-1861-1919 Banat was formally a part of Hungary [starting 1868 inside the
imperial dualism of Austro-Hungarian Monarchy].
More, in the S part existed a Military Frontier between 1751-1871.

"The term . was preserved only in Croatia (there the title of ban was used
from X. to XX. century) and only after XII. century was spread to other
Hungarian lands".

Well, this is one of my problem! Who was the first croat ban? And is
this/his title linked with an Avar or Bulgarian term OR is appeared under
the influence of Carolingian Court practices?


S o r i n

----- Original Message -----
From: andelkod <andelkod@...>
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003
Subject: [tied] Re: Help with ban_Banat
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alex_lycos" <altamix@...> wrote:
> In my opinion it is not a Rom. word but a word
> which entered the languages trough the rulers of that time. If
this is
> an avarian word as suppodes by other scholars or a bulgarian word
( from
> the turkish roots) I don't care too much:-)
>

The term could be of avarian or iranian origin, I really don't know,
but was preserved only in Croatia (there the title of ban was used
from X. to XX. century) and only after XII. century was spread to
other Hungarian lands. It is possible, if we assume that Avars used
it, that some relicts of its use stayed in other parts of avarian
state.

> The Banat is shared in parts . For one of them the Romanians say
> "Banatul Sârbesc"= The Serbian Banate. If this expresion is
regarding to
> the region inhabitet by serbians or the region ruled by serbians,
or the
> region given to the serbians in the XIX century, I am not sure how
to
> interpret this. There is tough no connection with bulgarians. If
there
> should be one, it should have been very long time in the past.
>

The Banat of Temesvar was never administered by a Ban to my
knowledge. I do not exclude the possibiliy that "Banat" is really
connected to "ban" in meaning "land which is administered by a Ban",
but that have no connection with Serbs, who got southern part of
Banat in 1918. Before that Banat was always part of Hungary. It
would be interesting to see when it was firstly mentioned as "Banat".

>
> Rosetti see it too as a loan from hungarian. In other ways we can
say
> the word "ban"= money= short form of "banalis"?
> Ivanescu means that after the invasion of tartars, the hungarian
money
> dissapired and then begun to appear the money of the Bans from
Croatia
> and Slavonia (1270).This money should have been in use until 1365
when
> the King Vlaicu Voda made his own coins, but they were called
too "ban".

Yes, I agree with Ivanescu. "Moneta banalis" is latin form taken
from official documents of that time.
In Croatia was used terms: "banovac" or "kuna" meaning "marten",
from the earlier use of marten skins for payment. On the coins
usually was picture of marten and text "moneta bani p. Sclavonia",
or "moneta ducis p.Sclavonia", or "moneta regis p. Sclavonia".