Re: This Saravati Business

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "deshpandem <mmdesh@...>"
<mmdesh@...> wrote:


purely in linguistic terms, if the word saras meant
"strong, fast flowing", it would be an adjective and adding a
possessive affix after an adjective is not a normal practice. On
the other hand, if saras meant a pool, the possessive affix
makes sense. That is why the ancient parallel river name
d.r.sadvatii is important where the word d.r.sad means "rocks."
The word saras has continued in the classical Sanskrit in the
sense of a pool of water, the words sarasija and saroja referring
to the lotus flowers that grow only in stagnant water and not in
fast flowing rivers. Besides the word saras occurs dozens of
times in early Vedic, for example in the famous frog-hymn (RV
7.103), where the context makes it clear that the frogs suddenly
pop up in rain-caused pools of water that had dried up in
summer.
Madhav Deshpande

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Chaudhary <ravi9@...>"
<ravi9@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, x99lynx@... wrote:
> > > Piotr, how do you feel about translating Sarasvati as "a lot

of

> water" or
> > "big river"?
> >
> > Steve L.
>
>
> *******
>
> Somewhere along the line common sense will prevail.
>
> Saras- vati.
>
> the suufix - vati, denotes commonly of. it is a common suffic.
>
> Vijayvati-- one who"' wins, victory" or to who, victory comes.
>
> There are many examples of this.
>
> The river is depicted as mighty, strong flowing,
>
> when it dries up, there are pools, and then it disappears, dries

up.

>
> For saras- srong flowing.
>
> If "strong flowing, rushing" is available, why then the anxiety to
> find a dried up river, in total contradiction to what the Rg says

???

>
> Somewhere in these archives this 'strong flowing" and "pool

thing"

> has been discussed.
>
> If you insist on finding pools you will find them or you can

simply

> follow the evidence
>
>
> Ravi

***********************

Here are messages 7455, 7456, 7557

The name of a river , does it have to a noun,.

Are or can a noun be derived from an adjective or a verb ??

Can linguistics be outside a cultural environment ?


Ravi:

******************



Piotr writes meesage # 7456 ***>

I wish I could make up my mind about it. The question is difficult or
perhaps impossible to resolve, since there was a complete merger of
*sel-es- (*selos) 'pool, marshy place' and *ser-es-
(*seros) 'waterflow' in Indo-Iranian. We have the Skt. s-neuter
<saras> glossed as 'trough, bucket; pond, pool, lake'. What shall we
make of it? Is it a derivative of *ser- 'flow', or a cognate of Greek
helos?

If the Sarasvati was a fast-flowing river with fierce currents, *ser-
es- would seem to be the natural choice; if it flowed amidst swampy
flats, forming numerous marshy pools, there would be a good case for
*sel-es-. But one and the same river can meet both descriptions.
Consider the Helmand (identified by some with the Sarasvati), which
rises in the mountains, rushes through rocky gorges "bursting the
ridges of the hills with its strong waves", as the Rigveda puts it,
and then enters flat lowlands and disappears in a cluster of swampy
lakes.

The root *ser- 'flow' is understandably frequent in IE hydronyms
(especially, though by no means exclusively, as extended *sr-(e)u-).
Neuter stems in *-es- often co-occur with derivatives in *-eto-. The
name of the Carpathian river Siret/Seret (< *ser-eto-) could be used
to support the plausibility of *ser-es- as a river-naming element.

----- Original Message -----
From: ravi9@...
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Sarasvati River


-
Piotr

I read your posts with much interest. I do have a question if you do
not mind.

saras - vati

if ser-es ' flow, current' is available while would sel-os/sel es-
'marshy lake ,pond,' be preferable as a meaning for 'saras'.

could saras vati to use your line of thought not mean a river, rich
in flow i.e a fast flowing river with much water.


Best regards


Ravi Chaudhary


-- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> We've discussed it before. The suffix -va(n)t- (feminine -vati: < *-
wnt-ih2) means "rich in, having a lot of". The most likely base seems
to be the PIE s-neuter *sel-os/*sel-es- 'marshy lake, pond, pool'. I
also considered *ser-es- 'flow, current' as a possibility, but the
former name apparently describes the historical Sarasvati much better
and I agree it's preferable as an analysis.
>
> Piotr


*******
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From: MCLSSAA2@...
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 1:57 am
Subject: Re: Sarasvati River


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To those who looked up references about the Sarasvati and had trouble
wading through the mystical-religious matter, the route of the
Sarasvati seems to have been thus. Its last two known headwaters were
the Sutlej and the upper Jumna alias Yamuna. The upper Jumna did not
flow into the Ganges as now, but turned west across the north of what
is now Haryana state. Further west, a dry desert river bed now called
the Ghaggar is part of its course. After that, the Sutlej joined it.
It flowed southwest through what is now Pakistan parallel to and east
of the Indus. The Rann of Kutch is the remains of its delta. In very
ancient times more of the Indus's present headwaters may have flowed
into the Sarasvati instead. It would have built its flood plain up so
much down the millennia with silt eroded out of the Himalayas and
western Tibet that it would have raised its flood plain level so much
that in the end its headwaters one by one found other courses that
reached lower ground quicker. That is why rivers on aggrading flood
plains shift about. Many of the Indus Valley Civilization sites are
along its course and likely communicated with boats sailing along it.
About 1500 BC its last mountain headwaters diverted to the Indus or
Ganges, and the Sarasvati dried and died, and along with it the
settements along its route, and that would have affected the history
of the area and perhaps thus the linguistics also. The upper Jumna
now
flows into the lower Jumna, which flows the Ganges at Allahabad alias
Prayag, and that is why Hindus say that "the invisible river
Sarasvati
flows into the Ganges there also".

I read once that in India valley Civilization deposits archaeologists
found some gambling dices which had on their faces pictures of things
whose names resemble the numbers 1 2 3 4 5 6 in Dravidian.