Re: [tied] FW: Re: Latin viridian

On Sat, 1 Feb 2003 10:22:01 +0100, "alex_lycos" <altamix@...>
wrote:

>Excuse me Miguel, where should the "e" after palatal not be pronounced?
>In PRB or where?

In (standard) Romanian. Bourciez $460.3: "Derrière une palatale l'e
ne se prononce pas dans roum. ceapã = ce:pa, sãgeatã = sagitta."

>Actually the sound is an "e" in the diphthong "ea".

In general yes, but not after the palatal sounds (/s^/, /z^/, /c^/,
/dz^/ and /y/ [/iea/ > /ia/]).

>And in which dialect should be "sãdzatã" for "sãgeatã"? I am not aware
>of it but you got me curious. Or maybe /dz/ here is just the way to write
>for affricated /g/ like in "joke"?

Yes: /dZ/, actually. I sometimes slip back into ASCII-IPA /S/, /Z/
for what I prefer to write as /s^/, /z^/. And if /$/ is used for the
first, I'll also go along.

>Normally the /e/ how you said in the previous rules, diphtongued to
>"ie". The "i" from /ie/ became a part of the consonant before it , so
>/t/+/i/=/ts/, /s/+/i/= S and there should have remained the /e/ in the
>word , it was not elided or "mute".
>Now it seems that this "e" which remained "free" from /ie/ diphtongued
>once again to "ea" and monophtongued once again to "a".
>So the chain transformations for vocalism of Latin "septem" are
>/e/>/ie/>/e/>/ea/>/a/ for giving Rom. "Sapte".

Pay attention. The chain of transformations was /se/ > /sE/ > /sie/ >
/siea/ > /s^ea/ > /s^a/

>Interesting should be in the actual language that from an /a/ you can
>get an /e/ when deriving: Sapte but înSepti= to make it seven times
>more.

The breaking of (i)e to (i)ea occurs only when the vowel is stressed
(so not in the infinitive -í, -íre), and when the word ends in -e or
-a (and if it ends in -e, -ea- eventually goes back to -e- in
Daco-Romanian: Macedo-Romanian leadze, seate > Daco-Romanian lege,
sete).

>But how you showed these rules should work and there should be
>more examples for /e/ which became an /a/ after s,d,t,k,g having now the
>form /Sa/, /Za/, /Tsa/, /tSa/,/Ga/. We can try to find some with this
>form at the begin of the word.

Before doing so, you should have checked for the exact conditions.
Only stressed /e/ (ie. /E/ from Latin short /e/) before final -e and
-a are covered by the rule. All of your so-called counterexamples
have either unstressed /e/ or stressed /e/ before other vowels, and
can be thrown out right away. I won't even discuss them.


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...