Re: [tied] Re: yellow

From: george knysh
Message: 18152
Date: 2003-01-26

--- "tolgs001 <gs001ns@...>" <gs001ns@...>
> gknysh wrote:
> >Neither Cumans nor Pechenegs were in the habit of
> founding
> >cities.
> But once that these and others (Khazars & al.
> T�rklar) took
> possession of them, and became the rulers/overlords,
> esp.
> the "senior" clans/bosses as compared with other
> hordes/uluses,
> their habit of calling hierarchic "senior" and
> "junior" as
> "white" and "black" could well have been used in the
> new
> territories too. So, not only the color of the walls
> and
> soil used to play a role.

*****GK: As to the Khazars, we do know of an Arabic
text which distinguishes between "white" and "black"
Khazars, but as far as I know this was not applied to
the designation of cities under their rule.
Incidentally, there is another steppe "colour scheme"
which must not be forgotten, where "white" stands for
"western" and "black" for "eastern" or "northern".
Sometimes they appear simultaneously (or it is
difficult to see which is meant). Like in the case of
the Slavic "Sivera" (from an Iranic term meaning
"black"). I am unaware of "ak" cities in territories
controlled by either Pechenegs or Cumans in Eastern
Europe. We have some evidence that Cumans liked to
call cities under their rule by the name of their
chieftains: thus Sharrukan, Balin etc. on the Donetz
in the 12th c. When Tmutorokan' and Sharkel (Bila
Vezha) fell to them in 1117, the names weren't
changed. Sharkel ("White Castle") was a Khazarian
foundation, and here the "white" referred to
geographical location rather than status.******
> >In any case I see no argument at all for the
> Thracian or
> >Getan Alb- being the basis of today's Bilhorod.
> The only relationship is the mere fact that Bilhorod
> in
> today's Ukraine, Belgrad (capital of Serbia) and
> B&lgrad
> (yesterday Gyulafeh�rv�r, today Alba Iulia, a former
> capital of Transylvania & a few kilometers away from
> the Sarmizegetusa, the capital of the ancient Dacian
> kingdom)..... have the same name, in Slavic, meaning
> "Whiteborough". (I'm using borough in the sense of
> Burg.)
> >It certainly wasn't for the Bilhorod founded by
> >Volodymyr just west of Kyiv in 991.******
> Bilhorod, Kyiv, Kharkiv etc. reflects the today's
> Ukrainian pronunciation habits. I expect however
> that
> all these names had pronunciations a bit different
> 800-1000 years ago.

*****GK: I don't disagree, although Ukr. linguists are
still not altogether decided as to the post quem for
the "e" to "i" and "g" to "h" shifts. Perhaps I should
also have said "Volodimer" (:=)). But you agree that
these matters are peripheral to the main issue
> George
> PS: Is there no document referring to AkKerman in
> the
> 13th century? (I mean under the Cuman and then
> Tartar
> domination.)

*****GK: None that I know. There is an obscure
"akliba" in Idrisi, but there is no agreement as to
either meaning or location. BTW you might be
interested in this: the same 1470 document which seems
to give the earliest historical attestation of the
Romanian form "Cetatea Alba" for Belgorod/Bilhorod has
an alternative Moldavian form "Tirgul Albu" which also
stands for "Belgorod" "White fortress"(Documentele lui
Shtefan cel Mare, vol. I, Bucharest 1913, p. 153)*****

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