Re: [tied] Re: yellow

From: alex_lycos
Message: 18042
Date: 2003-01-24

gs001ns@... wrote:
> Or rather that those "newcomers" brought along their custom
> to call - esp. in their Turkic idioms - independent places/regions
> (and/or of noble clans) as "white" ("ak") and dependent ones as
> "black" ("kara"). Hence B&lgrad=Gyulafehérvár=Alba Iulia (the
> old capital of Transylvania, the see of the "gyula" or "djilas"
> 1000 years ago, that later became the see of the "vayvode" of
> Transilvania); Akkerman=Cetatea Alba=Bielgorod Dnestrovski
> (see the river of Dnestr & the Black Sea); Beograd=Nándorfehér-
> vár=Beograd (Belgrade); Székesfehérvár=Stuhlweissenburg
> (an old capital of Hungary)

Aham. But what a coincidence - once I will buy something against
coincidences for not becoming sick of it-, again just in this space. Not
in Ukraine, not in Russia, not in Hungary, just this place. And just

> BTW: the ethnonym Albocensi in Ptolemy, III, 8, 3, from a locality
> called Alboca. It is only a hypothesis that the root of the
> toponym and of the ethnonym was a reflex of IE *albho-. Cf
> Ae. Walde/J. Pokorny, Vergleichendes Woerterbuch der i.-g
> Sprachen, Berlin, 1927-38 -> I, pp. 92-94 / and Willi Tomaschek,
> Die alten Thraker. Eine ethnol. Untersuchung, 1893-94 -> II,
> 2, p. 55

It is an only a hypothesis. But it seems to be strong enough.

>> So, the... evidence that those anonymous ancient Albocensi were
> decisive for the adjective "alb-" being included into the
> vocabulary of the Romanian language is quite slim. I'd rather
> accept what's anyway striking to anybody: alb < Lat. albus,
> alba, album. (How about its opposite... negru & neagra? Does,
> say, "poarta neagra" sound/look like "substrate" words or
> rather like Romance ones? :-)
> George

"Poarta". This is not an inherited word at all. This is a loanword. The
word is loaned in Germanic too, the German "Pforte" is a loan from
Latin. About "negru" you got me curious. Italian use "nerro", french "
noir", but spanish "negro" and Portuguese too "negro".
So far there we have the correspondence "gr" in Spanish and Portuguese
and one should be happy. DEX give it as "from Latin niger, nigrum,
But I am not quiet happy. The Romanian "negurã" makes me problems here.
DEX gives it as being the Latin "nebula" but nebula > negura it seems a
joke since intervocalic "b" remains and become a "g". The "l" should be
as usual rothacised.
So we are at the point.
Latin "niger", "nigrum", "nigra"
Rom. "negura", "negru", "neagrã"
It seems the "negura" is not Latin but it points with "niger" in form
since there is no "gr" but a vowel between "n" and "g". On this basis
who can tell me that there has not been a "negru" in substrate too? None
of course and I do not try to say it is from substratum .
Do not forget please, almost all Romanian words which are "inherited"
from Latin, show a derivation from the accusative form of the Latin
words. What should it mean?