Re: [tied]_Does_Koenraad_Elst_Meet_Hock´s_Challenge?

From: george knysh
Message: 17097
Date: 2002-12-10

--- Piotr Gasiorowski <piotr.gasiorowski@...>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "george knysh" <gknysh@...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 3:26 PM
> Subject: Re:
> [tied]_Does_Koenraad_Elst_Meet_Hock�s_Challenge?
> > ******GK: But what discernible archaeological
> cultures
> > in the east, predating Globular Amphorae, would
> you
> > associate with the basic spread of IE speech
> there? Or
> > are you saying that Globular Amphorae brought not
> just
> > the Satem innovation but IE speech in general into
> > this area?*****
> (Piotr)First LBK and later TRB, though of course
> eastward spread was limited;

*****GK: I have serious problems in associating either
LBK or TRB with the eastward spread of IE. LBK, as
mentioned, left no "successor culture" in Ukraine (it
did in the west), while TRB's expansion was even more
limited here than LBK's. More below.*****

(Piotr)there may have been an
> IE component in the Tripolye culture as well
> (pre-Greek?).

*****GK: The cultural links of Trypilia were basically
with the Balkans, and with Anatolia. Here the problem,
as pointed out last year, is that there is no evidence
of the kind of influence on the cultures east of
Trypilia (the Serednyj Stih-Khvalinsk continuum) which
would suggest a major language shift from X to IE with
the Trypilians being carriers of the latter. The
cultural evidence rather points to a reverse

(Piotr)As I pointed out, there were residual
> non-Satem groups in the east, so presumably the
> spread of GA was only part of the IE expansion to
> the east, but I daren't speculate about the
> linguistic status of the steppe cultures ca. 3000
> BC.

*****GK: The issue of the non-Satem groups in the east
(far to the east!) is indeed a fascinating problem.
But I still think that a revamped Mallory/Gimbutas
scenario works better than a Balkan homeland theory.
One weakness in Mallory was his incapacity to find
evidence for the immediate genetic relationship
between the IE steppe cultures of Serednyj
Stih-Khvalinsk and the Corded Ware horizons of Europe.
But there IS a missing link here. We now know that the
spread of the earliest Corded Ware groups to the west
began in the final phase of "classical" Trypilia [ca.
3750-3600]. Cemetaries were discovered which proved
the existence of exogamic relationships between Late
Trypilians and Early Corded Ware peoples, and the
great influence of Corded Ware on Late Trypilia [ca.
3600-2800 BC] was already known. It appears that many
groups of Corded Ware pastoralists moved westward [and
northward, if the Baltic dates are correct], and lived
in close proximity to both Trypilians, Funnel Beaker,
and other groups. The best known such Early CW
communities were those of Podolia, Upper Dnister, West
Volynia, and Lubachow (the latter in contemporary
Poland). What is interesting is that there is no
evidence of "conquest", just infiltration and
co-existence. Apparently the economy of the CW groups
(primarily pastoral) was more "progressive" in the
climatic context of the times, than the type of
agriculture practised by their contact groups (esp.
the Trypilians). In phase 1 of Early CW, there was, as
mentioned, coexistence between it and TRYP + FB. In a
middle phase, both TRYP and FB disappear, replaced by
GA which moves eastward, into "agricultural" area
unused by the CW pastoralists, and coexists with them.
GA probably assimilated some remaining groups of TRYP
west of the Dnipro, but it now looks as though most
TRYP [Sofiivka c. excluded] simply became CW. As Early
CW moved west, the Yamna and successor horizons
emerged further eastward. One interesting thing about
these early CW groups is the heterogeneity of their
funeral practices, which suggests that their "way of
life" was adopted by many groups of TRYP and FB. In
phase 3 of Early CW they assimilated the easternmost
GA, and then we have the big expansion of CW into
Central Europe, as well as some movement back east,
and the emergence of the Middle Dnipro (and later the
Fatyanovo) cultures. No wonder that there is much
difference (and similarity) between Middle Dnipro and
Yamna. Both cultures had similar roots but hundreds of
years of separate development and the absorption of
different substrates were telling.== I think it would
be worthwhile to examine the possibility that the
Satem shift occurred in connection with developments
further east rather than with GA. The "residuals"
would then be what remained of groups in the east not
affected by the shift.

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