Re: More numbers

From: tgpedersen
Message: 16435
Date: 2002-10-19

--- In cybalist@..., "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> --- In cybalist@..., "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@..., Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <mcv@...> wrote:
> > > On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:31:47 -0000, tgpedersen@... wrote:
> > >
> > > [stuff about Austronesian, or was it Austric?]
> > >
> > > While I don't believe a word of this whole Oppenheimer-Manansala
> > > stuff, it's still interesting to note that in 1840, Franz Bopp,
> one
> > of
> > > the fathers of Indo-European studies (although pre-
> Junggrammatiker)
> > > published an article where he advocated a (genetic) relationship
> > > between Indo-European and Malayo-Polynesian. I have never read
> > that,
> > > so I cannot say exactly what his idea was based on, but one can
> make
> > > an educated guess that the numerals had something to do with it.
> > > Austronesian forms such as <duwa> "2" (PAN *dewsa) and
<teru> "3"
> > (PAN
> > > *telu) certainly strike the imagination, and Bopp thought he
was
> on
> > to
> > > something, just like he (justly) thought to be on to something
> when
> > he
> > > noted (as one of the first) the similarities between the
Sanskrit
> > and
> > > Greek, Latin, Persian and Germanic conjugation systems.
> > >

> >
> > "Six" and "seven" are borrowed (presumably) from AfroAsiatic to
> > IndoEuropean and also to Etruscan (sa, semph), Basque
> > (sei, zazpi) and Kartvelian (ekvsi, shvidi ). They seem alway to
> > follow each other. Because of some IE reflexes of "six" that
> > don't seem to have the initial s- (Old Prussian, some Iranian
> > languages), that part of the root is sometimes left optional; this
> > also makes it easier to reconcile the root with Kartvelian
(Georgian
> > /ekwsi/.
> > Which gave me this idea: Suppose s- is some kind of "number
prefix"
> > *se- in whichever was the original language of six and seven?
> (Basque
> > would have it double, *se-pi- > *spi-, prefix now unrecognizable,
> so
> > it's added again: *se-spi-.) And seven, without the prefix would
be
> > *pitu-, which, voila!, is "seven" in nearly all Austronesian
> languages
> > (Proto-Austronesian *pitu?).
> >
> > http://www.zompist.com/anes.htm
> >
>
> Starting with prefix-less 6 and 7, namely
>
> -ekW-, -p-t-
>
> or, if we start fronm the AfroAsiatic (but not universally so!)
forms
>
> -t- , -p-t-
>
> let's follow a suggestion Miguel made some time back and look for
> them south of the Sahara. Perhaps, if s- is really a prefix, we can
> find those numerals there, possibly with other prefixes.
>
> http://www.zompist.com/niger.htm
>
> Niger - Congo
>
> 6 7
> Southwestern Mande
>
> Loko ngohita ngofela
> Loma doseta dofera
> Mende wéita wófela
> Bandi woita ngofera
>
>
> Eastern Mande
>
> Bisa soddi saapra
> Busa sûdó sûfla
> Samo Toma soro soba
>
>
> Northern Mande
>
> Senegal
> 5 6 7
> Fulani (Fula) jow- joweego'o joweed`id`-
> Maasina joyi jeegon jed`d`i
>
> Interesting that the prefix means "five". Perhaps s- once did too.
>
> In the same languages, the numbers
> 2 3,
> Fulani (Fula) d`id`- tat-
> Maasina d`id`i tati
>
> look like the reduplicated form of the corresponding Austronesian
> numerals. The Fulani, I've read somewhere in popular anthropology
> stuff, think of themselves as a people apart from their neighbors,
> cf. also the link I provided earlier of SE Asian back migration to
> Africa, approx the same area.
>
> "six" and "seven" are the numerals a people who can count up to a
> full hand need to take in astronomy.
>
>

In Bopp's original article he compares for "six"

Malagasy henne (Challon)
Tahiti fene

(most other Austronesian 'eneme' etc)
http://www.zompist.com/anes.htm

with Sanskrit

s´an.n.am (gen.) "six"

cf for "left"

Malagasy havia
Sanskrit savya

But of course if s- is a prefix, as I suggested before, Bopp's
deviant forms might just be sharing that prefix, and we won't have to
ignore the standard Austronesian forms.



One more piece of odd information: As some might have heard the Dogon
of Mali know of the companion star to Sirius, Sirius B, although they
are not supposed to, since it's invisible to the naked eye. Dogon
for "star" is 'tolo'. I thought I heard something similar before?

http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/tr.html

Now whatever that information means I don't know. Dogon also
has 'soy' "seven".

The t-r- "three" word appears in some languages of the Heiban branch
of the Kordofanian languages, but nowhere else in Nilo-Saharan
family.

http://www.zompist.com/nilo.htm

Loan-words?


BTW you find a lot of the words on Manansala's Sanskrit-Austric list
in Bopp's original article.

Torsten