From: george knysh
Message: 15417
Date: 2002-09-12
> "chingdude56" <chingdude56@...> wrote***GK: THIS GIUSEPPE PASSARIN IS THE SAME GIUSEPPE
> (Thu�Sep�12,�2002� 6:15 am)
> <<maybe i am unclear on my understanding of the
> various hypotheses regarding
> indoeuropean expansion, but i think the data
> supports a significant role for
> the location north of the black sea in its
> dispersal."The 49a,f Haplotype 11
> is a New Marker of the EU19 Lineage that Traces
> Migrations from Northern
> Regions of the Black Sea" Giuseppe Passarin, et al
> (Abstract)>>
>*****GK: NOTE THAT A HUNGARIAN COMPONENT WAS INCLUDED
> Yeah, there are several problem with connecting this
> particular allele with
> IE. A basic one is that distribution does not match
> up with anything but
> eastern IE languages (if that, see the Hungarian
> study by Passarino, below.)
>*****GK: TRY TO FIND THE DATE STEVE. THIS ARTICLE IS
> But as to this paper specifically, the early dating
> of the allele is the more
> obvious problem, indicated in the abstract by the
> statement: "...the
> distribution of which suggests that the (Eu19/49a,f
> Ht11) emerged in Ukraine,
> probably in a Palaeolithic population. Thereafter,
> the spread of this lineage
> toward Europe, Asia, and India occurred at different
> waves over a few
> thousands years. At present this seems to indicate
> the influence of the
> Ukraine Palaeolithic groups in the gene pool of
> modern populations."
>
> In "A synopsis of the entire European Y-chromosome
> biallelic haplotype
> spectrum. G. Passarino, et al" -- sorry no pub cited
> here in my notes --
> Passarino's thematic is outlined pretty clearly:*****GK: SORRY STEVE BUT THIS URL LEADS NOWHERE. TRY
>
> "The haplotype data almost completely describe the
> entire underlining
> framework of NRY genetic diverstiy in Europe. Three
> components appear to have
> been present in Europe probably since the
> Paleolithic era: (M173/49af Ht15
> and M170 in Western Europe; M173/49af Ht 11/M17 in
> Eastern Europe).
>
> Another [later] haplotype, 12f28Kb/M172, represents
> the contribution of the
> demic diffusion of Neolithic farmers coming from the
> Near East after the
> invention of agriculture..."
>
> The spread of the "Ukrainian allele" (49af Ht 11)
> has been interpreted in
> terms of paleolithic archaeological cultures
> substantially prior to the end
> of the Ice Age. For a better explanation see
> http://grokhovs1.chat.ru/legacy.html.
>*****GK: THAT DOES NOT SEEM TO HAVE BEEN THE
> The problem with correlating (49af Ht 11) with
> language is evident in the
> following abstract, where (49af Ht 11) was found to
> have its highest
> occurrence in Europe among Hungarians:
>
> Y-CHROMOSOME MARKERS IN HUNGARIANS
> G. Passarino, O. Semino, et al...
> "...The (12f2-8kb) allele and the (49a,f-haplotype
> (Ht) 15), which are
> respectively supposed to be the Neolithic and
> Palaeolithic components of the
> European population, represented only 2% and 7%
> respectively of the sample.
> In contrast, (49a,f-Ht 11) accounted for 40% of
> Hungarians, a frequency which
> is the highest yet observed.
> As to the other Y polymorphisms, 9% of Hungarians
> were YAP+, 45% 27H39-B and
> 70% CAII-Ht a5- bl. Although the last marker has a
> value which is typical of
> the Western European populations, its preferential
> association (58%) with
> (49a,f Ht 11) clearly distinguishes Hungarians from
> Western Europeans, where
> CAII-Ht a5-bl is associated with 49a,f Ht 15...."
> http://www.cowan.edu.au/pa/hgsa/conpos12.htm#markers
>
> The fact that there is a higher concentration of the
> "Ukraine allele"
> (49a,f-Ht 11) among Uralic speakers in Hungary than
> in eastern European IE
> speakers -- and a much, much higher rate than in
> western European speakers --
> suggests even more so that the correlation between
> IE origins and that allele
> is not workable.
>__________________________________________________
> Regards,
> Steve Long
>