Re: [tied] Re: Toponymy and ethnic Realities [...]

--- George <gs001ns@...> wrote:

>
> >******%%%%%%GK: I doubt very much the appearance
> had anything to do
> >with the original name. Note that as to Bilhorod
> Dnistrovs'kyj, there
> >is good evidence that at one point there were two
> fortresses in the
> >area, a "white" one and a "black" one. Here the
> colours refer to
> >geography, "white" indicating "west" (quite proper
> for a right bank
> >location) and "black" east. When Moldavians and
> Turks built up
> >Bilhorod, they may well have given it that "white"
> appearance you
> >mention. I don't think this was the case in the
> 10th century. There
> >were other "Bilhorods" in Slavic territories (and
> the Kyivan one was
> >also called thus because of location, not colour
> per se).*******
>
> In Turkic contexts, also to be verified "kara"
> (subordinate) and
> "ak" (free; chief) realities, i.e. administrative
> entities. (cf. Sz�kes-
> feh�rv�r = a "white" city & old capital of Hungary;
> Gyulafeh�rv�r
> = B@... = Alba Iulia = the old capital of
> Transylvania (starting as
> such under a Turkic chieftain related to the
> Arpadian royal house;
> also cf. N�ndorfeh�rv�r = Belgrad = Beograd =
> Serbia's capital).
>
> George

****GK: You are quite right. This alternative
explication should be kept in mind whenever such
"colour" issues arise (especially "white-"black"). I
might add that the ruler-ruled or free-dependent
business is also involved in nomenclature which stems
from some at least of the Alanic populations (perhaps
under Turkic influence?). Thus, the Slavic tribe of
the "Sivera" {the "black" or as later Slavicized, the
"Siverjany") was apparently so designated because they
it was subjected to the Alanic west Khazar Kaganate
(capital at Sarada near modern Kharkiv). I suppose the
Slavic term "chern'" for "lower class" people also
comes from this perspective (and the name of the chief
city of the "Sivera" was "Chernihiv"(Chernigov), viz.
"the black".*******

>
>

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