Re: [tied] Re: Toponymy and ethnic Realities [...]

--- m_iacomi <m_iacomi@...> wrote:
Are you suggesting that

> Constantine was
> > > plainly wrong writing down "DanastrewV" for the
> other river?
> >
> >(GK) &&&&&&******: What I am suggesting is that the
> manuscript
> > evidence for Dnister is ambiguous, and that other
> manuscripts
> > have "DanaprewV". What you should do is consult
> the Moravcsik-
> > Jenkins edition in the apparatus, where you will
> find the variant
> > in question. We have similar mixups between
> "Dnister" and
> > "Dnipro/Dnieper" in manuscripts of the Rus'
> Primary Chronicle. I
> > prefer the "Dnipr" reading in DAI for a number of
> reasons.******
>
>(MI) For the edition used by Brezeanu, I fail to see

any

> ambiguity. I
> take for granted that Moravcsik-Jenkins edition is
> unambiguously
> pointing towards the other river.

*****$$$$$GK: Brezeanu used the Moravcsik-Jenkins
edition. This edition, in turn, relied for its
critical text on a number of manuscripts, some of
which had "Dnister" in the context we are discussing,
while others had "Dnipro/Dnieper". M-J decided to
adopt the Dnister reading. I decided to adopt the
Dnipro reading.*******

The mixups in

> Nestor's text are
> not so relevant for this matter,

*******%%%%GK: Only to someone not particularly
familiar with the problems of editing manuscripts. I
mentioned it as an example of how ancient scribes may
opt for reading A or reading B, thereafter providing
textologists some interesting choices.******

I'm looking forward

> to find out
> which are your reasons to prefer the "Dnieper"
> reading.

******%%%%GK: One of them is because that river is
more important than the Dnister as a northernbound
waterway (from the 10th century Byzantine
perspective), and is more important within the
parameters of Constantine's discussion and description
of the Pechenegs and the Rus'. Another is that it is
the location of the so-called "Ulch grads", the
ancient Scythian cities.Note that Moravcsik-Jenkins
give no reasons whatever for their choice of Dnister
over Dnipro.********

> >> [...] the emphasis should lie on the shore, not
> on the city as in
> >> Constantine's text. OTOH, Cetatea Alba/Bielgorod
> Dnestrovskij
> >> has had always a striking effect on first-time
> viewers by its'
> >> white appearance.
> >
> > ******%%%%%%GK: I doubt very much the appearance
> had anything to
> > do with the original name. Note that as to
> Bilhorod Dnistrovs'kyj,
> > there is good evidence that at one point there
> were two fortresses
> > in the area, a "white" one and a "black" one. Here
> the colours
> > refer to geography, "white" indicating "west"
> (quite proper for a
> > right bank location) and "black" east. When
> Moldavians and Turks
> > built up Bilhorod, they may well have given it
> that "white"
> > appearance you mention. I don't think this was the
> case in the
> > 10th century.
>
>(MI) Why? Normally one should have used the same
> available stones for
> building up the city. It looks more likely from my
> point of view
> that city's Moldavian shape continued a white-colour
> tradition,
> independently on geographic reasons. In other words,
> city walls
> could very well have been white also in the 10th
> century -- which
> doesn't obviously contradict its' "white" location.
> Where the name
> did really come from (geography or colour) doesn't
> look clear.

******GK: The fact that there were a number of
"Bilhorods" in the Slavic areas makes the geographical
orientation somewhat more likely. BTW the Khazar
state's westernmost outpost was also named because of
its location (Sharkel= Bela Vezha in Slavic: "the
white fortress"). And the Croats of Dalmatia were the
"white" Croats. But I won't accumulate evidence. Your
view about B.D. reminds me of a popular notion that
the Belarusans were so called because they wore
"white" clothes.*******

If

> the city was white-coloured since the beginning, it
> could have been
> both -- and I don't find any valid reason to dismiss
> this idea.

******GK: I assume that its sister fortress (the
"black" city) would have been built with the same type
of material originally, not with black stones...*****

>
> > > So what city would you propose for
> Constantine's Aspron?!
> >
> > *****GK;%%%%% If it's a question of a "ruined"
> city on the Lower
> > Dnipro, my guess is that it might have been the
> same one that
> > Ptolemy called "Metropolis", the first Scythian
> city on the Dnipro
> > to the east of Olbia. *******
>
> Does it have white walls?

*****&&&&&:GK: I have no idea. I believe not much is
left there except foundations. But it certainly was
the westernmost city of the Old Scythian complex on
the Lower Dnipro, and on that account deserved to be
called "the white" (city)*******

>
> Regards,
> Marius Iacomi
>
>

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