[tied] Re:P & Q, and -pt- & -kt-

From: richardwordingham
Message: 14417
Date: 2002-08-20

--- In cybalist@..., Piotr Gasiorowski <piotr.gasiorowski@...>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: richardwordingham
> To: cybalist@...
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 11:25 AM
> Subject: [tied] Re:P & Q, and -pt- & -kt-
> > Surely Albanian <natë> 'night' shows the development of IE -k^t-,
which I would not expect to be like Latin /-kt-/ as late as the Roman
Empire. What happened to the cluster with 'plain' (uvular?) /k/, or
indeed /kW/, or indeed -kt- developed internally after satemisation?
> The "night" root is *nekWt-, actually, so your question has already
been answered. But for the sake of completeness, medial *kWt and *k^t
both end up as /t/ in Albanian. A good example of *k^t > t is the
first <t> in <tetë> '8' from *ok^to:-t-. By contrast, in Romanian
nocte- > noapte (cf. lucta- 'combat' > Alb. luftë).

I apologise.

> > Is there any evidence that Latin /-kt-/ > Balkan Latin /-pt-/ was
not a substrate-induced substitution comparable to the occasional
(reverse!) change /-pt-/ > /-kt-/ (e.g. Latin capti:vus > French
chétif, English caitiff) in Gallo-Romance?
> What sort of evidence could that be? I simply don't know why Latin -
kt-, -ks-, -Nn- (see below) became -pt-, -ps-, -mn- in that variety.
At any rate, we can't blame all phonological change (no matter how
odd) on substratal influence. Even languages practically devoid of
_any_ historical substrate (such as Icelandic or most of the
Polynesian languages) go on changing, sometimes in rather strange

One Dacian word and one Illyrian word, each with medial /kt/ or /ks/,
would do. (I would settle for just the Illyrian word.) I originally
intended to ask if substrate influence were possible, but then
realised that the answer in the absence of detailed evidence specific
to Balkan Romance would probably be 'yes'. I myself am always
suspicious of claims of substrate influence, especially as it often
seems to be ignotum per ignotius.

Is not Irish a substrate for Icelandic? A lot of the settlers' wives
were Irish! (So too were the previous inhabitants, but they were
wiped out.) At least Irish is well known.