Re: the slavic influence in Balkans

From: tgpedersen
Message: 14213
Date: 2002-08-03

--- In cybalist@..., "richardwordingham" <richard.wordingham@...>
> --- In cybalist@..., "sergejus_tarasovas" <S.Tarasovas@...> wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@..., alexmoeller@... wrote:
> > > [moeller]
> > > Let us go on:
> > >
> > > rom. gard, old slav grad, alb. garth
> >
> > *gordU [gard&]
> > Russian _górod_
> > Ukrainian _górod_
> > Belarusian _górad_
> > Czech _hrad_
> > Slovak _hrad_
> > Polish _gród_
> > High Sorbian _hród_
> > Low Sorbian _grod_
> > Slovincian _gard_
> > Polabian _gord_
> > Bulgarian _grad_
> > Serbo-Croatian _grâd_
> > Slovene _grâd_
> >
> > Albanian _garth_ is a native word, I'm not aware of the Romanian
> > lexeme, but a borrowing from Slavic at least can't be excluded.
> > also Lith. _gar~das_ 'fence', Gothic _gards_ 'house' -- there's
> > nothing specifically Balcanic about the word.
> The Latin word is _hortus_ 'garden', but I don't know enough to
> predict the Romanian derivative, if any. I'd guess **oart and
> probably be totally wrong.
> Why would the proto-Romanians borrow the word for 'thorn'? It
> no more sense to me than the Gallo-Romans borrowing the word
> for 'hedge' from the Germans, which they did! (French 'haie').
> Regards,
> Richard Wordingham

Haw (?), n. [OE. hawe, AS. haga; akin to D. haag headge, G. hag,
hecke, Icel. hagi pasture, Sw. hage, Dan. have garden. . Cf. Haggard,
Ha-ha, Haugh, Hedge.]
1. A hedge; an inclosed garden or yard.

And eke there was a polecat in his haw. Chaucer.
2. The fruit of the hawthorn. Bacon.


but I believe the Swedish word should be /haga/, not */hage/, and I
recall that in was a fenced-in area for horses (thus a 'corral'?).
This might not have been familiar to the Gallo-Romans.
Also 'town' (German /Zaun/) and 'grad/gorod' etc mean both fence and
the "en-fenced" area.
One thing that puzzles me is the Germanic /haga-thursa/ word (->
German /Hexe/ "witch", English /hag/). What does witchcraft have to
do with a garden or a fence? Is it perhaps related to Agathyrses etc,
with "false" /h-/.
I've discovered that h-confusion is a general feature of Western
Flemish (besides of Cockney), therefore (one might surmise) of the
Germanic dialects that spoken past and south of Calais. Or, if one
wants to be drastic:

Koenraad ELST:
Linguistic aspects of the Aryan non-invasion theory
An interesting little idea suggested by Witzel concerns an
alleged alternation k/zero, e.g. in the Greek rendering of the place-
name and ethnonym Kam­boja (eastern Afghanistan) as Ambautai,
apparently based on a native pronunciation without k-. Citing Kuiper
and others, Witzel (1999/1:362) asserts that "an interchange k :
zero 'points in the direction of Munda'" though this "would be rather
surprising at this extreme western location". Indeed, it would mean
that not just Indo-Aryan but also other branches of Indo-Iranian have
been influenced by Munda, for Kam-boja seems to be an Iranian word,
the latter part being the de-aspirated Iranian equivalent of Skt.
bhoja, "king" (Pirart 1998:542). At any rate, if the Mundas could
penetrate India as far as the Indus, they could reach Kamboja too.

But the interesting point here is that the "interchange k :
zero" is attested in IE vocabulary far to the west of India and
Afghanis­tan, e.g. English ape corresponding to Greek kepos, Sanskrit
kapi, "monkey", or Latin aper, "boar", corresponding to Greek
kapros. Gamkrelidze and Ivanov (1995:113, 435) have tried to explain
this through a Semitic connection, with the phonetic and
physiological closeness, somewhere in the throat, of qof and 'ayn.
But if the origin of this alternation must be sought in an Afghano-
Munda connec­tion, what does that say about the geographi­cal origin of
English, Latin and Greek?

Given the location of the different language groups in India,
it is entirely reasonable that Munda influence should appear in the
easternmost branch of IE, viz. Indo-Aryan. If both IE and Munda were
native to India, we might expect Munda influence in the whole IE
family (though India is a big place with room for non-neighbouring
languages), but since Munda is an immigrant language, we should not
be surprised to find it influencing only the stay-behind IA branch of
IE. This merely indicates a relative chronology: first Indo-Aryan
separated from the other branches of IE when these left India, and
then it came in contact with para-Munda. So, if we accept the
presence of para-Munda loans in Vedic Sanskrit, we still need not
accept that this is a native substrat­um influence in a superimposed
foreign language.

one might invoke the k/zero pattern. Perhaps one might even unite PIE
*koryo- with II *arya- (which would make the latter a loan from II
into Celtic?