Re: [tied] Re: the slavic influence in Balkans

From: alexmoeller@...
Message: 14195
Date: 2002-08-01

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: "richardwordingham" <richard.wordingham@...>
An: <>
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 1. August 2002 22:43
Betreff: [tied] Re: the slavic influence in Balkans

The Latin word is _hortus_ 'garden', but I don't know enough to
predict the Romanian derivative, if any. I'd guess **oart and
probably be totally wrong.

[Moeller] the rumanian word is "gra:dina:" and it is indeed a slavic
loandword .In bulgarian and serbo-croatian we have too gradina.

> > rom. ta:rg,old slav tru:gu:, alb. terg
> > rom. ga:rba:, old.slav gru:bu:, alb. ge:rbe:
> Proto Slavic *tUrgU and *gUrbU are equally well attested in most
> ( ;) ) Slavic languages as well, but I don't feel like typing two
> lists more.
> Albanian _tregë_ is a native word, and I'm not aware of _gërbë_ or
> the like. Romanian _tãrg_ [t&rg] and _gãrbã_ [g&rb&] (if you quote
> them correctly) fit like a glove with Proto-Slavic *tUrgU [t&rg&] >
and *gUrbU [g&rb&].

[Moeller] yes they fits very well indeed.

Are you saying Proto-Slavic *tUrgU became Old Slavonic trUgU, where U
is the very short vowel ('jer')? If so, Romanian tãrn :- Proto-
Slavic *tUrnU 'thorn', Old Slavonic trUnU < Proto-Slavonic *tUrnU
fits likewise. I am presuming that Proto-Slavonic /Ur/ < PIE /r./,
where 'r.' denotes the syllabic liquid.

[Moeller] it seems so. I have no ideea hov productive is the root "t:r"
in the slavic languages but in romanian there are many of words which
begin with this root , some being supposed to be slavic, some hungarian,
some turk, some with no ethymology like "ta:rfa:" which means "whore".

Why would the proto-Romanians borrow the word for 'thorn'? It makes
no more sense to me than the Gallo-Romans borrowing the word
for 'hedge' from the Germans, which they did! (French 'haie').

[Moeller] the semantic of the word is no more in use in romanian. Now
they use for thorn words like "spin" or "ma:ra:cine" or "ghimpe" where
"ghi" is pronounced like Gyorgy in slavic languages. I just wonder if in
slavic languages the term is still in use and has too the same
semantic.What is weird that spin is supposed to come from latin spinus
where this tree has ,by God , no thorn ; the word ma:ra:cine is supposed
to come from latin marrucina and the word ghimpe is supposed to come
from substrat or to be an loanword from albanian , albanian having here
the form "ge:mp" with the same sense.


a. moeller