Re: the slavic influence in Balkans

From: richardwordingham
Message: 14193
Date: 2002-08-01

--- In cybalist@..., "sergejus_tarasovas" <S.Tarasovas@...> wrote:
> --- In cybalist@..., alexmoeller@... wrote:
> > [moeller]

> > Let us go on:
> >
> > rom. gard, old slav grad, alb. garth
> *gordU [gard&]
> Russian _górod_
> Ukrainian _górod_
> Belarusian _górad_
> Czech _hrad_
> Slovak _hrad_
> Polish _gród_
> High Sorbian _hród_
> Low Sorbian _grod_
> Slovincian _gard_
> Polabian _gord_
> Bulgarian _grad_
> Serbo-Croatian _grâd_
> Slovene _grâd_
> Albanian _garth_ is a native word, I'm not aware of the Romanian
> lexeme, but a borrowing from Slavic at least can't be excluded. Cf.
> also Lith. _gar~das_ 'fence', Gothic _gards_ 'house' -- there's
> nothing specifically Balcanic about the word.

The Latin word is _hortus_ 'garden', but I don't know enough to
predict the Romanian derivative, if any. I'd guess **oart and
probably be totally wrong.

> > rom. ta:rg,old slav tru:gu:, alb. terg
> > rom. ga:rba:, old.slav gru:bu:, alb. ge:rbe:
> Proto Slavic *tUrgU and *gUrbU are equally well attested in most
> ( ;) ) Slavic languages as well, but I don't feel like typing two
> lists more.
> Albanian _tregë_ is a native word, and I'm not aware of _gërbë_ or
> the like. Romanian _tãrg_ [t&rg] and _gãrbã_ [g&rb&] (if you quote
> them correctly) fit like a glove with Proto-Slavic *tUrgU [t&rg&] >
and *gUrbU [g&rb&].

Are you saying Proto-Slavic *tUrgU became Old Slavonic trUgU, where U
is the very short vowel ('jer')? If so, Romanian tãrn :- Proto-
Slavic *tUrnU 'thorn', Old Slavonic trUnU < Proto-Slavonic *tUrnU
fits likewise. I am presuming that Proto-Slavonic /Ur/ < PIE /r./,
where 'r.' denotes the syllabic liquid.

Do we have an e-mailable symbol for shortness? A colon (:) is
massively confusing, as it is the IPA symbol for length! (U for
short only works because we use capitalisation to denote strangeness!)

Why would the proto-Romanians borrow the word for 'thorn'? It makes
no more sense to me than the Gallo-Romans borrowing the word
for 'hedge' from the Germans, which they did! (French 'haie').

I had always understood that Proto-Slavonic had the curious syllable
structure C(C(C))V. Does this mean that this apparent goal was
completed independently in the Slavonic dialects?

Richard Wordingham