Re: PIE rdical for "thorn"?

From: richardwordingham
Message: 14183
Date: 2002-08-01

--- In cybalist@..., guto rhys <gutorhys@...> wrote:
> Welsh has 'drain/draenen', Cornish, Breton and Irsh have related
forms (I remember drinking in a pub in Spiddle (Eire) called An
Dhraenen (something similar-my apologies to all) Dhu. Which would fit
in to the t-/d- pattern.

> alexmoeller@... wrote:we dont have a PIE radical in Pokorny's
dictionary or in another
> dictionar.
> Can we suppose the form *tern for this radical?
> We have in german "dorn" in english "thorn" and in romanian "ta:rn"
> instance.
> What does speak against it?

Onions' 'Oxford Etymological Dictionary' gives:

"thorn: ... sharp-pointed process on a plant ... Common Germanic
Turnuz := IE tr.nus, f. tr.n, tern- ... Old Irish trai'ni'n 'small
stalk of grass', Old Slavonic trUnU 'thorn', Sanskrit tr.'nam 'grass
stalk', Greek te'rnax 'cactus prickle'."

('T' denotes the letter thorn.)

Could the Romanian word be a Bulgarian loanword? It almost fits the
examples given in .

The Celtic words with forms like 'drain-' don't fit this root
phonetically. I suppose they could be a blend with PIE deru-, doru-
'tree'. In Greek it developed the meaning 'spear', but all I know
of for Celtic are Old Irish daur and Welsh derwen, both
meaning 'oak'. Whatever its origin, it may have had some support
from forms such as Old Irish trai'ni'n.

Richard Wordingham