Re: Modern day minority languages in Anatolian Turkey

hi,
just a correction for aristid's paranoid delusions,
almost all of the caucasia languages are spoken in anatolia adige
abhaza,nogay kumýk,they are decendents of the refugees from the
russian invasion and all are wellcome. a few thousands of muslim
pontids still remain in isolated villages, georgian is spoken but all
of them are muslims and refugees again, we have arabic speaking
citizens and they are remnants of early islamic warriors and for all
of these statement mostly you should divide the numbers given by my
eastern mediterranean brother by ten.
for his disinformative historical explanations, turkish nationalism
was the last nationalism to awaken in the ottoman empire. the last
century of the ottoman empire was halfcolonization ( refer to A.D.
Novichev the half colonization of the ottoman empire) it was better
than to fight against an army to cooperate with the nonmuslim
minorities a few of whom were eager to rob, kill, rape their
neighbours. so the non muslim minority grew rich as the muslims went
poorer and poorer, intoxicated by this unright, not earned, stolen,
not because of hard work and sweat, easy richness, they went rude
and rude. still nothing was done to prevent this tragedy untill they
all went totally out of control.
finally they attacked their neighbours with violence and they were
defeated we fought hard to survive. we had no alternative. we were
fighting for our home and this was the breakpoint and we won but they
would not accept the defeat because they did not fight righteous,
with their modern and well prepared and paid army. we won because we
we were right (aristid you cannot always be right just accept it you
will be happier). well i have been following the list to learn more
about the IE history and culture but this kind of disinformation
makes the statements and opinions expressed here a little
susceptable. ok please leave turks alone and while learning history
it is a wrong way to learn it from politicians or politically
inclined groups
i dont think that this list is interested in the prejudgements of
anybody.
if you would like to learn about what is left from the early
anatolian languages, well there is almost nothing left because of the
byzantine's byzantinization policy ( formerly greeks' grekization
policy), nothing is left from frigian, hititian, urartu, luwian etc
(well in fact armenians destroyed these brillant stone workers of
urartu), the only clue you can find is among the turkish dialects but
this will give information about the sound only.
but it is true the persians are turkicized while we are persianized,
our religious words we use in daily life comes from persian, namaz
and oruch, savm and salat.
well we are almost brothers with aristid or a persian, or a syrian
that will be true for some of the slavic too ( but this is
controversal a nd i wont try to prove anything, it is an unimportant
issue). we are to some degree a part of IE history and nothing more.
well this message is unnecessary for most of the members, but it was
inevitable to get another view of history. this is necessary for
objectivity.
best regards

--- In cybalist@..., jpisc98357@... wrote:
> Dear Indo-European friends,
>
> I liked the letter on Anatolian Turkey's Byzantine influence
and
> forwarded it to my Ancient Weapons discussion group <A
HREF="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientweapons">Yahoo! Groups :
> AncientWeapons</A> and one of its members gave quite an
enlightening response.
>
> Best Regards, John
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientweapons
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Dong_Son
> http://www.johnpiscoposwords.com
> PO Box 137
> Western Springs, IL 60558
> (708)246-7111
>
> The historian in me itches to add some detail to the outline below;
to wit,
>
>
> On 6/10/02 6:12 PM, "jpisc98357@..." <jpisc98357@...> wrote:
>
> > From: "jdcroft" <jdcroft@...>
> > Reply-To: cybalist@...
> > Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:53:43 -0000
> > To: cybalist@...
> > Subject: [tied] Re: Europeans descend from Basques...
> >
> > Torsten wrote
> >
> >> > Out of curiosity: Has anything of the previous languages
(except
> >> > for Byzantine Greek, of course) survived in present-day
Anatolian
> >> > Turkish (possibly in dialects)? Has anyone investigated that?
Is it
> >> > worth pursuing?
> > 1) I do not know what you mean by ³Byzantine² Greek: the language
of the
> > literate in Constantinople and other places during the Greek
Middles Ages was
> > Attic Greek; the Church language drew from the Koine Greek of the
Hellenistic
> > period; and there were many dialects throughout the breadth and
length of Asia
> > Minor. The term ³Byzantine² strictly speaking refers to
Byzantium, the name of
> > the Megarian colony that was founded around 6th century BC. The
Mediaeval
> > Greeks did not referred to themselves as Rhomaioi or later
Graikoi; those with
> > literary affectations (after the 12th C) called themselves
Hellenes (from
> > Hellas), though the term was one of opprobrium (it generally
meanth ³pagan²).
> > The term ³Byzantine² to describe the Later Roman (or Greek)
Empire was
> > invented by European scholars of the 17th C.
> >
> > Until the rise of the Young Turks under Enver Pasha and
> > their "Turkish only" linguistic policies there was a huge Greek
> > speaking population in Anatolia. After World War I, with the
rise of
> > Ataturk, these Greeks emigrated to Greece in a huge movement of
> > refugees.
> > 2) There were about 2.5-3.0 million Greeks and at least 1.5-2.0
million
> > Armenians (they spoke Armenian, another ancient language that
survived until
> > the 20th C); both groups were Christian, and as such were the
target of
> > genocidal policies of the government under Talaat Pasha and later
that of
> > Kemal Ataturk, in an effort to create a ³Turkish² nationality and
consolidate
> > their rule. The term ³emigrate² does not sufficiently describe
the reasons
> > these groups ceased to exist in the lands they had inhabited
since at least
> > the second millennium BC. About 1 million Greeks and 1.5 million
Armenians
> > were killed, and the remainder fled or were forcibly converted to
Islam.
> > Other languages spoke in Turkey today include Kurdish (an Indo-
European
> > language related to Persian probably with over 10-14 million
speakers), Laz
> > (related to Georgian, with 1-3 million speakers), Abkhazian
(another Caucasian
> > language with 2-3 million speakers in Asia Minor), Arabic (with
about 3
> > million speakers in the Alexandretta/Iskenderum area), and
apparently some
> > tens of thousands of (Muslim) Pontians still speak their dialect
of Greek.
> > Indeed according to most ethnographers of Asia Minor, there are
over fifty
> > (50) distinct ethnic, religious and/or linguistic groups in
Turkey today; it
> > is questionable how many of these identify as ³Turks.²
> >
> >
> > Regarding Greek influences on Turkish, I understand that the major
> > difference between the Turkish of Turkey and the Turkish of
> > Turkmenistan lies not in linguistic interference, not from Greek
but
> > rather by Persian. It ironic that the Ottoman Empire was one of a
> > Greek speaking substrate, Turkish speaking soldiers, Arabic
speaking
> > religious culture and a Persian literature! The final language
could
> > have almost gone in any direction.
> >
> > 3) That it did not bespeaks of the confluence of Islam and
European
> > nationalist and totalitarian ideologies on the Turkish military
caste.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Aristide Caratzas
> > http://www.caratzas.com
> >
> >
> >
> >