PIOTR WROTE:
<<Pardon me, Steve, but do you know any Latin at all? I mean the sort of
knowledge that allows you to recognise a regular grammatical form. Harios is
the _LATIN_ acc.pl., justified by the syntax of the sentence in which it
occurs.>>
Sorry about that. You're right and there is no excuse for it.
PIOTR ALSO WROTE:
<<As regards the aspirate, *x- was lenited in the eastern dialects earlier
than it was in West Germanic. The <h-> in the names of the Harii (*xarja-) or
the Hasdingi (*xazdinga-) reflects the same Germanic consonant as the <ch->
in Cherusci or Chatti. The Romans used <h-> for the glottal glide of those
languages that had it... The Hermunduri belonged to the <ch-> block in middle
Germania: Tacitus himself explicitly classifies them together with the Suebi,
Chatti and Cherusci.>>
Where do you find this? Of course you are not saying that Tacitus classified
the language of the Hermunduri as belonging to the <ch-> block. But again
this is all about assumptions. It is just as likely that what Tacitus was
reporting was the same -h- in Hermunduri that he reported in names like
Boihaemi, Harii, Helveconae, Helisii, Nahanarvali, etc. Or that he was
simply recording a Latin -h-, as in Hermes, adopted by Germanic speakers.
And the reason would logically be that this <h-> was what the Hermunduri used
in referring to themselves.
PIOTR ALSO WROTE:
<< If you claim that the Germani knew better than anyone else when an aitch
was needed in their language, I agree.>>
Then, prima facie, perhaps the best assumption is that the Hermunduri at the
time of Strabo were pronouncing some kind of <h-> in their name. Especially
since there is no record of them doing otherwise. It's only the unnecessary
presumption that the basic word is native Germanic I think that causes any
problem here.
PIOTR ALSO WROTE:
<<Since you mention that, the "ermVn-" names are _never_ attested with an
initial consonant in _any_ Germanic language. OE eormen-, ON jˆrmun-, OHG/OS
irmin-/irman-. It's only the Latin-language sources that show the <h->.>>
But all those are attested many centuries later. And this later development
is totally consistent with these speakers recognizing "Hermon-" as a
Latin/Romance word and the fact that the <h-. had become mute by then. Grimm
mentioned the "striking similarity of the name Irmansul or Hirmensul to Ermhj
and erma = prop, stake, pole, pillar,..." So it looks like the literal
<herma> also eventually lost its <h-> in Germanic, as it did in later Latin.
(And I think it's pretty plausible that Irmansul was a Hermes-pole, ie, a
Hermae, right down to its description.)
But, in the first century BC, apparently neither the <h-> in Hermunduri nor
Hermes were yet muted.
I WROTE:
<<And why in the world would the "Romans" start off using an -h- in a German
word when they were quite capable of starting words - lots of words - with
<er->?>>
PIOTR REPLIED:
<<The folk-etymological association of Ermun/Ermin- with Hermes is quite a
reasonable explanation.>>
BUT, the idea that Ermun/Ermin was a borrowed Roman or Greek word is probably
a better explanation. It does not force a Germanic origin explanation. It
does not assume an early irrelevant -h-. And once again it jives with
Tacitus' description of who the Hermunduri were and how they would have
gotten such their name. They identified themselves with Hermes because they
were free of borders -- interminati, ergo, immensi. Norman O. Brown explains
the connection between Hermes and border markets in detail in his book
"Hermes the Thief."
I WROTE:
<<And what evidence do you know of that the Roman -h- was mute in the 1st
Centuries BC-AD? >>
PIOTR REPLIED:
<<I've already written to Cybalist about
that:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/12385%c2%a0>>
Well this indicates that the -h- was losing ground in the first century BC,
certainly not that it was gone. Cicero was making speeches where he used the
word <he_ros> and it would be difficult to believe he was saying the
equivalent of <e_ros>. Hermes give no evidence I am aware of that it lost
its -h- this early and -- by simple extrapolation -- the same should have
applied to Hermundurus. Again, I'm aware of no evidence to the contrary
until centuries later -- e.g., the "end of the imperial age."
By the way, the article you linked -- "Latin at the End of the Imperial Age"
-- also mentions another interesting word history : "The latest loan-words
kept the position of the Greek accent: éremos gave éremus, as seen in the
Romance forms, It. éremo and érmo, Sp. yérmo, OF. erm." The Old French form
is interesting because the "eremus" word in Latin (and Greek) is synonymous
with <vastus> which also was sometimes synonymous with <immensus>. Perhaps
we had a confusion of <erm-> words among the clerics here. "Erm" certainly
looks like a candidate for the clerics' "immensus", too, but from a different
source.
PIOTR WROTE:
<<Jˆrmunr < *ermun- is one of Odin's epithets in Scandinavian tradition. If
you want to see it, go to this address, for
example:
http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/ugm/skindex/thul4b.html>>
I can't read it but again this is much later and reflects a later usage of
the word. The Scandinavian tradition certainly also brings in boundary
markers, pillars and license to trade and move in foreign places and ports,
so the connection to the Saxon and Roman "epithets" may work much the same.
I believe there is also an "ermon-gild" mentioned among the Visigoths. This
might reflect a tax on foreign access or right-of-way.
<<The identification of Wodan and Mercury/Hermes is even reflected in the
calque <Mercurii dies> --> Wednesday, Woensdag, etc.>>
I think that is right but later. And I don't believe it affects the meaning
of Hermes reflected in Hermunduri. The Hermunduri may have privately called
themselves the *Wodunoniz or some such. The battle over boundaries and
right-of-ways to markets and resources explains a lot of these "princely"
gods and a lot of history. (Tacitus mentions one such battle involving the
Hermunduri and access to a salt-producing river.) But I think the name
Hermunduri specifically reflected, as Tacitus implies, the first and only
"Germani" licensed to trade in Roman markets and that was highly significant
and the cause for a rather specific reference to Hermes/hermae.
Steve